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Warning latenight incoherant rant: I feel the the ability for any newbie programmer to pick up VS be it C, VB, or .NET and spit out a GUI app in mere hours is really really bad. There are A LOT of programmers out there who dont know how to solve problems, yet they can make popup dialogs and other GUI magic. I've been here for a while and have been around the froshies at school, constantly its get a problem write code as fast as you can in the right direction. Everyone is being taught more about syntax and proper language rules than problem solving, which is what computers and programming are all about.
When I have a problem, a program to write. I think about how to generally solve the problem. Then break that down into managable parts, then convert each part into the language Im writing it in. Everyone I see does it the other way around.
Take a look at this. And this We need to focus toward this, software dev is a giant mess, horrible in every manner. The IDE makes things much worse. However, if you know how to program, not just code but develop methods for the solution of problems, then the IDE's and such are fine. But people are starting off with tthem and its leading to extreamly buggy, insecure, bad bad code.
People, get your problem solving concepts down. Solve the problem, then code it. Please for my sanity
Nova, you and I could not be more on the same page. I saw that article yesterday, and it made me think about some of the new programmers I've hired in the last few years...each coming in with the idea that they can write incredibly complex programs (I'm not saying that they cannot), but faltering in an interview process or meeting when asked to whiteboard a solution to a problem.
I should be clear...I have no problems with the use of IDEs, even Visual Studio. the problem I have is that when such IDEs are the only way a programer learns to code, they are not educated in proper programming methodology...they are able to produce a GUI that would serve as an interface for a solution, but not able to adequately provide the solution.
IDEs have their use...they allow for accomplished programmers to skip many of mundane steps required in solution implementation, but I would wager to say that many who have solely used IDEs do not understand the underlying code of the portion done by IDEs, and are therefore incapable of debugging it should something go wrong.
It's great to put a button on a form, but unless you understand (read: are able to replicate that functionality minus the IDE), you have relatively little chance of fixing it if required.
I urge all...learn how to think, analyze, and program. Once you've done that, feel free to use any IDE you want.
When I first learned to program (with vb 6), I wasn't taught to do anything before code, except for interface design. because of this, even though I know a few languages, I can never write anything larger than small snippets because I always end up confusing myself, or losing track of what needs to be done next.
I've wanted to learn how to program correctly for a while, but I can never find anything helpfull on the subject. This thread has made me think about again, so I was wondering if anyone has any tips or suggestions on how to go about learning the correct way.
This is an excellent thread. I fully agree with everything here. Visual Studio is a good place for folks to start. But just like when learning how to program web applications, it's a horrible horrible idea to just jump in to Dreamweaver and let it write the code for you. You have to understand what's going on, know how the code works and how to solve complex problems. I see far to many people entering the web development industry with little or no experience in problem solving. Between the turn-key solutions, and never having to write their own code, when it comes down to having to do something on their own, they are SO lost.
I started coding when I was about 10, qBasic. I started learning about web stuff around 12 and I started small, learned how to accomplish certain tasks. Now, people just click the install button and call themselves web developers or programmers. You HAVE to know what's going on and how to troubleshoot/solve problems.
Yes, it should be mandatory reading. Looking at it now, I realize, that it looks a bit out-of-context because it was down the road in one of my rants, but basically I think this phenomenon is strengthened by the possibility to create professionally LOOKING applications with the aforementioned tools - and it can make impossible to tell a good app from a crap for somebody who is not an expert.
I think its a typical problem of using something for something it wasn't designed for! Take it, VS was made by MS in the fist place for MS! When you have literally thousands of programmers, your software developing process is different from that of small teams and maybe individuals. You have some guys who design the whole application with a CAD system that also generates the skeleton of the code (classes, methods and attributes) so your programmer grunts only have to implement the methods according to the directions set by the designers/engineers. They do not have to think about decomposing the problem at all! Suddenly all these intellisense features make sense: it is needed, because you have multitude of functions defined and implemented by others! So what can you do, if you want to use it in another environment (ex: writing an entry for a DIC programming competition)? Try to customize it so that it fits your needs. If it cannot be done, then choose another IDE or compiler. Its like one of my IDEs I use suddenly binded a function onto the [ sign: I am not sure who set it as the default but I am sure he doesn't program with arrays too often, because it even took away the focus from the code view... So if MS forgets about us slowly and concentrates on other groups, well take a deep breath and use something else, I think gcc and vi are staying with us for a while So as for C, assembly and other advocates, learn to choose the right tool for the right problem: don't use asm for the processing of international texts, Java for device drivers, C for predicative code, VB or Javascript for writing QUAKE 5, and so on. All of these programming languages were designed with a distinct purpose in mind, and although it might seem that everything can be accomplished with all of them, but maybe there is another much easier way around!
Do you ever think that there are Assembly & Hex programmers sitting in forum somewhere talking about how C++ in general rots the mind?
They may well be, and if the people they were laughing at did not understand the principles behind programming, they would be right to do so.
I think the general thrust was that to use an IDE such as VS as the only method to learning programming might present the programmer with a few disadvantages...if aprogrammer only knows how to put a command button on a form by double clicking it in the toolbox and dragging it onto the form in a particular spot, that programmer is likely to be of precious little use if the button needs to be moved to a different location in a non IDE environment. I feel the same way about people who make applications simply by copying and pasting code from others...yes, they have made the application, but no, they do not understand how it functions.
Again, do not get me wrong...I have no problem with IDE use for those who understand the mechanics of programming, and are good analytical thinkers...I use them myself, and even have instaces of VS for whn I need them (as pointed out by 1lacca - a tool for the right situation).
And yes, I can program in assembly, although I pray to god nightly that I never have occasion to do so again!
27 Oct, 2005 - 08:08 PM
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