Healthcare Reform

Time for us to do what Uncle Sam Cannot

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56 Replies - 2311 Views - Last Post: 14 September 2009 - 11:33 AM

#1 macosxnerd101  Icon User is offline

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Healthcare Reform

Posted 26 August 2009 - 06:44 AM

Let's go ahead and try to come up with solutions for the healthcare reform. After much consideration, these are the problems/causes I see:

-Illegal immigrants getting free healthcare (including getting grandfathered in)

-Socialist nations controlling prices at which drug companies can sell drugs, causing these companies to jack up the prices in America.

-Class action lawsuits against doctors and drug companies. IMHO, there should be accountability, but also protection for doctors. There needs to be differentiation between a doctor who performs a surgery w/o any training, and a doctor who has taken appropriate measures and still failed.

-People w/insurance end up paying for those w/o it.


These would be my solutions to the problems:

-Throw every illegal immigrant back to Mexico, regardless if they get knocked up over here.

-Other than lobbying and negotiating w/the socialist nations, there isn't much more we can do. I'm strongly against using price controls b/c that restricts the growth of our economy.

-For the doctors and drug companies, the FDA or another oversight organization needs to have people investigating the efforts made by the doctor || drug company to determine if they truly deserve to get sued, using them as witnesses in court (or something along those lines).

-People w/o insurance should be put through a Canadian style healthcare system. I'm not denying them healthcare, but it shouldn't be up to the insurance companies to offset their problems (not that I don't sympathize with them).

What do you all think about the healthcare reform stuff?

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Replies To: Healthcare Reform

#2 ForcedSterilizationsForAll  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:30 AM

Why would socialist nations be controlling the drug prices in the US? Aren't most of the drugs prescribed in the US from US drug companies? Don't most of the drugs here already cost an arm and an asshole but are much cheaper in other countries?

I'm so glad you think we should get rid of all the illegals. I love paying high prices for things. And I'm so glad that you want to work in the meat packing plant and do all the labor that the illegals are doing. While you're mowing my lawn you can clean the gutters out as well.

I'm really very curious about where you're getting your facts from on what's included in this reformation. Did you get them from Fox News? Or are you pulling them out of your ass?
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#3 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 26 August 2009 - 08:32 AM

I am going to go with a minor tangent on your illegals argument.

First - what the hell?!! All illegals == Mexicans? Where the hell do you live? Where I am at we have a large problem with illegal Sudanese, Iraqis, Somalis, South Americans, Muslims, and Canadians.

Second it's not an issue of illegals getting free health care it's an issue of EVERYONE bumming off the system. People with new Tahoes using food stamps, people who don't want a job and produce babies, and people who own business that fundamentally cannot afford health care coverage for their employees.

Third is your solution just with Mexicans or can we chuck everyone? If everyone how far back? Ten, twenty, thirty years? I be the First Nations would love to see all our assess of their land.

Fourth, have you actually thought about the logistics of rounding everyone up? Dear god I.C.E. would have to enlist half the nation to turn on the other half.

Fifth - the children. For once think of them. How about the kids who parents came here illegally (with the kid as a baby), and the kid grew up thinking they were american and now they are chucked on their butt back in their country of origin sans knowing the language, the culture, or anything about it. Do we turn a blind eye to this?

Now a bit your issue.. can you explain how people with insurance are paying for those without? I rarely see someone who gives this claim provide any warrants.
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#4 macosxnerd101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 04:48 AM

@ForcedSterilization: Price controls in other nations are the main reason for the huge price difference for drugs in America vs. foreign nations. And I think w/close to 10% unemployment, these unemployed Americans would be happy to take these jobs in order to survive. If it was between foreclosure/bankruptcy/etc. and working a crappy job, I'd choose the crappy job. Wouldn't you? Plus, don't forget that the state & federal governments collect some revenue from legal, working Americans, which is more than you can say for the illegals.

@Modi: I apologize, I should not have generalized about the immigrants. You're right, it's not just Mexicans. And there is the tough question of how far back do we care about for illegals. In terms of the kids of illegals, I would rather take care of our own (Americans) before we try to save all the illegals. And then let me say this, why do we need to suffer b/c of the parents' stupid decisions. There are children who grow up all over the world, and if they can do it, so can the children of illegals (it's harsh, but we can't afford to save everyone).

For people w/insurance paying for those without, let me illustrate:

Hi, I'm a drunk on the street and I've had a stroke. I go to the hospital and they CANNOT turn me away for medical treatment. So, they treat me and I recover w/the help of their staff & medicine while laying in their rooms watching their TVs and eating their food. Now, it's time for me to leave. But I have nothing to my name. What can they do about it? Absolutely nothing.

Now, you go in after having had a stroke. You get the same quality treatment as the drunk, and recover. When it comes time for you to pay, which you can, the big wigs are saying, you know we cannot afford all this charity, how are we going to recoup our losses? I know, compensate through the people we can pay.

It's true. My dad is diabetic, and has ended up in the hospital on more than one occasion of diabetic shock. Plus, my grandmother lives in a nursing home suffering from depression, and she too has been in the hospital a fair amount. So I've seen first hand kind of what happens.

And to whoever said I listen to Fox News, I don't. It's some of the most biased bullshit I've heard.
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#5 Amadeus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 05:04 AM

View Postmodi123_1, on 26 Aug, 2009 - 10:32 AM, said:

I am going to go with a minor tangent on your illegals argument.

First - what the hell?!! All illegals == Mexicans? Where the hell do you live? Where I am at we have a large problem with illegal Sudanese, Iraqis, Somalis, South Americans, Muslims, and Canadians.

There are illegal Canadians in the US? General rule of thumb is to emigrate to a country where things are better, amigo ;)

View Postmacosxnerd101, on 26 Aug, 2009 - 08:44 AM, said:

-People w/o insurance should be put through a Canadian style healthcare system. I'm not denying them healthcare, but it shouldn't be up to the insurance companies to offset their problems (not that I don't sympathize with them).

I'd be interested to here what you think a 'Canadian style healthcare system' is...not insinuating you're not informed, just wondering if you have the whole picture - for example, the healthcare system here is not endorsed by everyone either (including myself).
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#6 Nykc  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 05:05 AM

Ever notice illegal Canadians & English people never get deported...
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#7 Amadeus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 05:10 AM

It's because we're too valuable ;)
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#8 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:40 AM

it's because they have a high giggle factor. they say 'aboot', everyone giggles. how could you deport a tiny giggle factory?
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#9 ForcedSterilizationsForAll  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 06:55 AM

So, how would Universal Health Care make the price control problem worse? Is it suddenly going to cause the already high price of drugs to rise even higher? Where is this information coming from that it's a bad idea? Who stands to lose money from this and who stands to gain money from this?

So if there is Universal Health Care, it's going to make it cost more for people that have health insurance? If I can cancel my health insurance and still be treated for things and not have to worry about paying for it then what's the point of having health insurance? Why would anyone get it then?

You still haven't made any clear justifications on why you feel the way you do.
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#10 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:27 AM

I don't know why people are so happy about the public (read: government) option. If the public option is cheaper (with a comparable level of service) everyone and their mother (pun intended) will switch. Where does that leave the private sector?

The real question is, does the federal government need another system to manage? (Personally, I say no.) Can they afford it? How are they going to pay for it? So on and so forth. None of those questions have been answered and until they are, the discussion is a moot point. There's no free lunch program fellas.

If a state run health care system is anything like the ones I've had to use while overseas, my no becomes a hell no. I'd rather pay more then sit in line with the rest of the populace. When I'm paying for it, I still have consumer leverage, there is an incentive for the doctor to be the best, to provide the best possible care. Now, if there was simply a quota the government mandated, and he got paid the same regardless of level of care, that incentive is now gone. Why do you think Communism in Russia failed? There was no personal incentive to excel, to exceed expectations. The shirt factory (for example) had to make (say) 10 shirts a day. There's no stipulation to the quality, etc... just a number. No thank you.
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#11 macosxnerd101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 07:30 AM

View PostAmadeus, on 27 Aug, 2009 - 06:04 AM, said:

I'd be interested to here what you think a 'Canadian style healthcare system' is...not insinuating you're not informed, just wondering if you have the whole picture - for example, the healthcare system here is not endorsed by everyone either (including myself).


But don't you all have to wait forever for procedures? From what I understand, those well-off Canadians drive to like Vermont or New York to get their medical procedures. Correct me if I'm wrong.


@ForcedSterilization: Universal healthcare and price controls in the US will have a huge ripple effect in the economy. It will almost predetermine the maximum amount of profits the drug companies can make. By limiting this, it will limit their spending power in employment & purchasing (office supplies, jets, computers, shipping, etc.) as well as their ability to expand and grow. When this happens to one sector, it will impact other sectors as well.

In terms of insurance, while you may be able to cancel your coverage and still get taken care of, it is still getting paid for. With Obama's (and the dems in congress) plan, it will be paid for w/our tax dollars.
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#12 Amadeus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:06 AM

Good questions, ForcedSterilizationsForAll. I know they were directed at the OP, but let me offer a few observations from someone who lives with Universal health care. Keep in mind, I'm not debating it's value, but I (among others) would like options :)

Canada has one of the most oppressive income tax burdens of the first world countries. A significant portion of the taxes collected are used to fund universal health care - which is uniformly available to all. This has unfortunately resulted in elongated wait times for many common procedures...I'll use MRIs as an example. Unless it's an emergency, the wait time for an MRI in my area can range from 3 weeks to 5 months...unacceptable to me if I'm in pain. I can mitigate that wait however simply by traveling over the nearby US border and paying a clinic to give me one (which I'm happy to do -I can afford it).

The dollars I lose (or would lose) paying for third party insurance or directly for the procedures pales in comparison to the tax burden I shoulder for universal health care. Again, it has a great value...I would simply like an in-country option for those who can afford it - a two tiered system.

@mac...you are correct :)
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#13 ForcedSterilizationsForAll  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:33 AM

Did you just seriously say it was a good thing to pay outrageously high prices on drugs? What flavor of Kool-Aid are you drinking?

Do you think that if limits were placed on how much drug companies could charge for their drugs that would cause the money consumers would save to just disappear and be removed from the economy?

If you normally had $1000 in expenses each month and that dropped to $600 a month where does that extra $400 go? Does a goblin come by and eat it?

The only thing that happens to the economy when limits are placed on the cost of drugs is that the money is spent somewhere else. It goes from one person's pocket to another.

Everyone wants all your money, the more they can have the better. If the big drug companies go down, there will be plenty of others to rise up and take their place. Companies love to outsource all their workers for the cheapest cost, why can't consumers outsource these companies and cause the greedier ones to fail?

The reason communism failed was not because their was no incentive, it was because of greed and corruption. Then again, you're using greed to justify incentive as instead of using a desire to do your best as an incentive.

Working in a sweat factory making shirts is a far cry from being a doctor. If the only reason people become doctors is for money then they shouldn't be doctors, but instead they should be doing something they love.

Also, if I don't have insurance and go to the hospital, who eats that cost? The hospital is going to pass it on to someone, most likely the patients. This increases the cost of health care when people that can't afford get treatment.

If they re-appropriated where the tax dollars were going to pay for a more public health care system I don't think I'd have a problem with that. As it stands, the US spends far too much money on defense. Recently, I remember seeing that over 50% of the tax dollars (350 billion) were spent on defense.

If some of this 350 billion were spent so everyone could have health coverage, would you still be against that? If we spent less time bullying other countries around and acting like the world police pushing our values on other countries, but instead look at things from their point of view before making decisions that affect them then there'd be a lot less countries pissed off at us so we wouldn't need to spend as much on defense.
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#14 macosxnerd101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:12 AM

No, I did not say that paying more for drugs was a good thing. What I said was that government price freezes are 99.9% of the time a bad thing. What I'm saying is that if every nation removed their price freezes, then the drugs wouldn't cost so damn much for us. In addition, it would create a state of competition and free market (I think Smith called it Lassez faire, excuse any misspelling on the French). In terms of defense dollars, were you singing the same tune on 9/11? I certainly hope you weren't b/c that would be a huge insult to those who died in that tragedy. However, you are right in the fact that we need to reduce wasteful spending in the military. Now let me ask you this, do you really want to give people a handout w/government health care? Or do you think there should be stipulations? In other words laws so that the hard working average Joe w/a family to support should get help but a lazy drunk shouldn't.

@Amadeus: Thank you. I completely agree. I believe we should evolve towards universal healthcare, but we can't just make one huge jump there. Looking back at another big issue called universal suffrage, the history gradually evolved towards fully universal. It started as the landowners, then evolved towards any white male citizen, then to any male, then to women. In comparison to healthcare, we have to make small steps towards gradual improvement. If we jump right into it w/o a very good plan, then we will screw ourselves for decades to come. Personally, I like the two-tiered system. Regular private healthcare for those that can afford it to inspire and generate quality results, and then Canadian style healthcare for those who can't afford it (without all the outrageous taxes).
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#15 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Healthcare Reform

Posted 27 August 2009 - 11:41 AM

@osx
Okay.. now I am lost. You bitch because there are free loaders. You bitch that they are making your insurance high (what ever that means).
You bitch that you don't want to be taxed to cover it all like the canuks.

So.. where is this money coming from? If we go your way - a two tiered classist way then you are paying into because of insurance and then you are paying into it again for taxes? Unless when you file your income tax in april you have to mail a copy of your insurance card in?

Additionally how would this function? One hospital for those with insurance and one clinic for those who don't? Is it a speed pass system? What sort of regulations are on who trumps who? Uninsured drunkard in cardiac arrest gets trumped by suburbanite with a broken collar bone?

I am also going to call you out on your classification of all uninsured people being lazy drunks. You generalize too much.

Exactly why are we assuming there will be a price freeze on drug costs? I always figured the government makes people pay X and foots the tab on the rest. Thus leaving the pharmacons unhinged from the reality of the price and killing the whole system.
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