What do you think of programming

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51 Replies - 5314 Views - Last Post: 02 October 2009 - 04:51 AM

#31 thursdayniac  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 28 September 2009 - 12:37 AM

View Postkenryuakuma, on 18 Sep, 2009 - 04:48 PM, said:

Well...Let's talk about my perspective about what programming really is.

- In my perspective, programming is one of the hardest subjects ever ever to learn. This is the subject I fear the most. When u mention programming, the fear just run up through from my spine. So I am just wondering if there is any easy way to grasp the concept...

U know, some of you guys can program like nothing but I find it so damn difficult. Even there are a lot of tutorials out there online, none of which do really show you a real thing or give you a really detailed and clear explanation about the code and what really each of the syntax do. My question is if there is any book that is really for the noob(a really stupid noob) that need everything explained in detail) and then help you all the way through to become a advanced programmer, or at least help you to become comfortable with programming. And once when you see the real professionally written code like those done for commercial use, you know how they work and what they do and the way how they solve specific problem.


I was the same way when I was in high school. I was extremely interested in programming. I went out and bought a C++ book, but it intimidated me for some reason. I couldn't really understand what was going on... but my interest in the subject did not fade. I decided to major in CS(figuring I would be able to learn programming in school... I mean, thats what I pay thousands of dollars for, right?), and somewhere in my intro programming class something clicked. Now, I understand programming from the lowest level all the way up to the syntax. If you stick with it, you will eventually understand it(Although, some people are just not cut out for programming). You have to look beyond the languages and the platforms.

I hope this gives you some confidence and good luck!
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#32 Raynes  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 28 September 2009 - 11:47 AM

View PostNeumann, on 25 Sep, 2009 - 12:13 PM, said:

View PostRaynes, on 21 Sep, 2009 - 06:34 AM, said:

Learning Liberty BASIC would do him about as much good as fucking a goat underneath a Christmas Tree.


Explain why.


You know why. I'm not going to explain the obvious.
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#33 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 07:28 AM

View PostRaynes, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 10:47 AM, said:

View PostNeumann, on 25 Sep, 2009 - 12:13 PM, said:

View PostRaynes, on 21 Sep, 2009 - 06:34 AM, said:

Learning Liberty BASIC would do him about as much good as fucking a goat underneath a Christmas Tree.

Explain why.

You know why. I'm not going to explain the obvious.

The obvious is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Yet another beginner who bashes on a BASIC dialect just because he/she heard somebody else do it. You should've at least used Google and copied somebody else's argument for BASIC being bad...
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#34 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 10:23 AM

In today's learning environment, there is no reason a 16 year old+ should start with any flavor of BASIC. If I was teaching programming/computing concepts to a elementary school aged child, I might use it. Why? Simplicity in its ability to convey going through a set of instructions. (Peanut butter jelly sandwich assignment anyone?).

But, if a person is reasonably bright, they could start with any high level and/or scripting language they wanted to and do fine.
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#35 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 11:55 AM

View PostKYA, on 1 Oct, 2009 - 09:23 AM, said:

In today's learning environment, there is no reason a 16 year old+ should start with any flavor of BASIC.

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But, if a person is reasonably bright, they could start with any high level and/or scripting language

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#36 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 11:57 AM

I don't consider BASIC to be a high level language.

Since you obviously want me to be explicit: Python, Java, C, or C++ is what I had in mind.
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#37 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:00 PM

Why is BASIC not considered to be a high level language in your view?

Just an FYI, BASIC is a high-level language.
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#38 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:08 PM

Are you this arrogant in person?

If we consider the entire family of BASIC, then yes it could be considered high level (Visual Basic, awesome), but inherently it is structured and linear (edit: the word I was looking for was procedural). C++, for exmaple, is also procedural, but has more "abilities" then BASIC.

It is an old high level language.

10 INPUT "What is your name: ", U$
20 PRINT "Hello "; U$
30 INPUT "How many stars do you want: ", N
40 S$ = ""
50 FOR I = 1 TO N
60 S$ = S$ + "*"
70 NEXT I
80 PRINT S$
90 INPUT "Do you want more stars? ", A$
100 IF LEN(A$) = 0 THEN GOTO 90
110 A$ = LEFT$(A$, 1)
120 IF A$ = "Y" OR A$ = "y" THEN GOTO 30
130 PRINT "Goodbye "; U$
140 END



Compare that to an equivalent program in say Java and the differences are obvious. You're welcome to your opinion though and unlike you I'm not going to jump up on a pedestal about mine.

This post has been edited by KYA: 01 October 2009 - 12:13 PM

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#39 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:20 PM

View PostKYA, on 1 Oct, 2009 - 11:08 AM, said:

If we consider the entire family of BASIC, then yes it could be considered high level, but inherently it is structured and linear (edit: the word I was looking for was procedural).

Language's paradigm has absolutely nothing to do with it's level.

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Compare that to an equivalent program in say Java and the differences are obvious.

Yes, there will be difference in syntax and paradigm. Your point?

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You're welcome to your opinion

This is not an opinion. BASIC is high level - that's a fact.

You may think that I'm arrogant, but when somebody calls C a high level and BASIC a low level (while still noting its simplicity) I need to ask for such justifications.

This post has been edited by Neumann: 01 October 2009 - 12:30 PM

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#40 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:38 PM

Compared to assembly C is high level.

BASIC is a low high level language.

Either way, I still would not use BASIC for anyone, at anytime to teach anything.
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#41 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:43 PM

View PostKYA, on 1 Oct, 2009 - 11:38 AM, said:

Either way, I still would not use BASIC for anyone, at anytime to teach anything.

Well, if you're thinking that BASIC is a lower level than C, and that the language's paradigm affects it's level, then I wouldn't want you to teach any language to anyone for anything.

Though I do like your justification as to why BASIC is a bad choice for a first language. It just is!

This post has been edited by Neumann: 01 October 2009 - 12:46 PM

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#42 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 12:53 PM

Paradigm certainly isn't the qualifying factor, but it does play a role. C doesn't natively support OOP, but C++ does (among other things). BASIC does not teach any good programming habits. There's no reason to start someone on it just to have them have to unlearn everything when they move to their next language.
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#43 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 01:14 PM

View PostKYA, on 1 Oct, 2009 - 11:53 AM, said:

Paradigm certainly isn't the qualifying factor, but it does play a role. C doesn't natively support OOP, but C++ does (among other things)

Ok... Don't see how this has anything to do with the level of those languages. (Edit: Unless you're trying to say that OOP languages are "higher" because they abstract the implementation of the problem, which is true. But the criteria of the level of the language deals with it's abstraction of the physical computer and that's what I solely refer to in this discussion).

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BASIC does not teach any good programming habits.

I can't recall any programming language that teaches any habits, good or bad. In fact, I can't recall any programming language that teaches anything. Java probably comes close, but all it does is enforce some structure which gets abused left and right anyway (catch (Exception e){} anyone?).

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There's no reason to start someone on it just to have them have to unlearn everything when they move to their next language.

Like using loops, variables, conditionals, and breaking programs into procedures? That's all I remember learning from Liberty BASIC and I don't recall having to unlearn any of those skills.

This post has been edited by Neumann: 01 October 2009 - 01:21 PM

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#44 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 01:40 PM

Right, as any bad habits you picked up were erased when you moved on.

lol

Simple is not always better.
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#45 Guest_Neumann*


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Re: What do you think of programming

Posted 01 October 2009 - 02:46 PM

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Right, as any bad habits you picked up were erased when you moved on.

As I have said, I do not recall picking up any bad habits from Liberty BASIC. All I've learned from it was everything that I needed to learn from the first language - the basic programming constructs and modularity. Maybe I received a habit of giving variables a shitty name or maybe I couldn't indent properly. But those habits have nothing to do with the language itself.

Quote

lol

Ok, so we started judging a language based on how pathetic it's official website looks like. This is a sign to me that I need to wrap this thing up.

So we started discussing the viability of BASIC as a first programming language. Even though the majority of our discussion turned into me trying to convince you that BASIC is not a low level programming language (and is certainly not lower than C, in fact C is much more lower than BASIC, as shocking as it may sound) you finally presented your point - BASIC doesn't teach good habits. Though you didn't provide any specific example of those habits and how BASIC "teaches" them, I thought it's a valid argument, albeit a poor one, as I cannot imagine a language being able to teach anything. Language is a set of syntax rules and semantics. It sets the boundaries of the way we structure and express computations, but it itself doesn't teach anything in any way.

I understand when Raynes and Locke try to bash on BASIC and can't justify it. They are beginners, of course they don't have any real arguments (as they don't know what they're talking about), so leave that "lol" comment for them to make. Your last word.

Peace out bitches!!!

P.S. In b4 "Neumann is an arrogant douchey asshole-fag".

This post has been edited by Neumann: 01 October 2009 - 02:52 PM

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