How to stop a hooker

not what you might think..

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#1 Aeternalis  Icon User is offline

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How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:24 AM

Recently there was a topic closed in the game programming section. The topic was a request for information about Hooking into a game. If you came in here looking for something about prostitution, you can stop reading now. B) The topic was closed by a moderator, because they implied that this topic was illegal? or immoral.. in some way.

Perhaps there are some illegal practices that would involve this, but there are also lots of people that use this practice (legally I might add) to heighten their gaming experience. Let me give an example of this.

Johnny Gamer buys a new game and loads it on his PC. He loves the game and plays it constantly with his friends over the internet. The game uses DirectX to draw its graphics.

"Johnny decides to use some code that hooks the directX DLL allowing him to override the textures used by the models in the game. This turns all of his guild mates into Barney, the purple dinosaur. He thinks it's hysterical, and the effects are contained locally to his computer. "

He is not cheating, he is not breaking any laws, and it makes the game more fun for him to play.

Please don't reply with a reference to the same method being used to turn on or off a wireframe mode to enable seeing through walls.. or some other use that is immoral or malicious. I realize that code in general can be used maliciously and in ways that are immoral. But we don't stop teaching people to program because they might write a virus do we?

I have noticed that this is the policy here, and for the most part I agree about squashing the threads starting out with

"How to make virus Please show codes PLEASE it's urgent! "


But if you ask me.. you can use a pen to write poetry or stab someone in the neck with it.. it's not the pen it's the person.

Personally I'm of the opinion that we should provide help to those that ask, as long as they follow the guidelines of the site, provide code or at least post a reasonable question that they are having problems getting their head around.

Am I just off base on this? You guys would rather censor any information that would possibly be used immorally? I say that because I provided a link to a tutorial on how to do what we described above.. hooking a directX DLL ... and it was removed when the thread was closed I think.

Comments? Opinions?
Where should we draw the line?



Aet

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#2 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:33 AM

Here's the deal: the issue (whether I agree or not) is a slippery slope. Using the same technique/technology to hook a game DLL to draw Barney can be used for nefarious purposes. Thus, if someone obtains information how to do it here, in some crazy lawyer's head, Dream.In.Code "could" be held liable for any damages stemming from this individual or any incident related therefore (keep in mind that threads are indexed all over the place, easily search-able, etc...).


I'm all for the education, usage, and implementation of code/hacks/etc... that could be used for the wrong reason simply because in order to catch the bad guy, you have to think like a bad guy. You have to be intimately familiar with how these things work to combat them. See the thread in the corner cubicle about the teacher teaching network security flaws, fixes and such to his students.


If someone really needs to find this information, it is widely available on the internet already.
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#3 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:33 AM

Who cares if it's moral or not? It's against forum rules. Go request your help somewhere else.

But it is immoral if it's an on-line game. Your "heightened experience" should not come at the expense of everyone elses'.

This post has been edited by WolfCoder: 21 October 2009 - 08:35 AM

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#4 RudiVisser  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 08:40 AM

EDIT: Ignore me, thought this was a topic that served a purpose about the practices used to stop "hackers" hooking your application.. I was wrong.

Errrrrr Original: You can't stop it. It's too simple to stop and polymorphism won't help.

This post has been edited by RudiVisser: 21 October 2009 - 08:41 AM

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#5 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 11:16 AM

@OP
It's hardly a question of morals - it's a question of the agreement of purchasing a game. I have yet to find a game that doesn't have a EULA indicating modifying, reverse engineering, and what not are against the acceptable use of the product.

Sure some games like Fallout 3 and Neverwinter Nights have level editors and what not - I am not talking about those games. We are talking about the closed up games that expect you to play them straight up and wait for the DLC.

Does that mean some of the mod community operate outside the confines of the law - sure. It is up to the game developers to take the appropriate actions they thing is necessary.

KYA is right - the slipper slope is always an issue. Is there a line? Yes. Is it defined like a line in the sand - no. Everything is judged on a case by case basis and when it is too far over the line it gets yanked.

I hope this doesn't turn into a pity post "oh noez! my questionz legit!".

Oh, and malicious does not equal immoral.
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#6 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 11:35 AM

Malicious actions are immoral by definition. Immoral actions and Malicious actions both might even be synonymous. Did you try to say "illegal is not always immoral" or "Malicious is not always illegal"? It would make much more sense.

Anyway, personally I'm only talking about Online games because it ruins the game for everyone else once people start hacking. If it's a single player product you own then do whatever.

This post has been edited by WolfCoder: 21 October 2009 - 11:35 AM

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#7 Kanvus  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:48 PM

hello sage
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#8 Aeternalis  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 01:54 PM

@ KYA - thanks for the reply.

Quote

Thus, if someone obtains information how to do it here, in some crazy lawyer's head, Dream.In.Code "could" be held liable for any damages stemming from this individual or any incident related therefore (keep in mind that threads are indexed all over the place, easily search-able, etc...).


This would be akin to holding Glock accountable for a murder. It's not going to happen.

Haven't had the chance to check out that post about the teacher, will look at it soon though.

@Wolf

Quote

Who cares if it's moral or not? It's against forum rules. Go request your help somewhere else.


Where does it state that Hooking a DLL for personal use on your PC is against the rules? What rule does that fall under.. not being rude.. just seriously hadn't seen that rule.. can you quote it for me?

The second part of that kind of bothers me though.. we claim to be a programming help site, why would we turn away a visitor that is honestly seeking knowledge?

I agree with your last statement from your first post.

Quote

But it is immoral if it's an on-line game. Your "heightened experience" should not come at the expense of everyone elses'.


That's correct, However I think you are misunderstanding me on this one.. even with an online multiplayer game.. the effect of changing the textures is only experienced locally. No one even knows your doing it.

@Modi123_1 You have a pretty good thought there.. if it is against the license of the game then I would certainly think that hooking that game would be wrong. The problem is, even though there are some instances where doing this is wrong, there are also some instances where it is perfectly fine. You even argue that some games promote modding. Since we KNOW that there ARE places where this would not be illegal, and the use would be legit.. how can we simply Reject all questions on the subject categorically?

It doesn't matter if your talking about the modable games or the closed up ones as you said.. you can't be sure the person is going to use the technique for anything other than his own personal legal activities.

In fact I have waived many opportunities to provide help to people on this site because I did not want to provide help for the activity they stated to be invovled in. That is perfectly acceptable for any poster to do. No one forces us to provide help. The Moderators closing a thread based on the category of the topic is really what Im aiming at. I'm looking to get clarification on why the website (not the posters) sometimes refuses to help with what could be a legit question. What are the guidelines for them, and as a programming help website, are we unnecessarily turning away visitors that are requesting help?

Don't know what a pity post is..
Agreed malicious does not equal immoral, and if you notice in my post I used them to mean two completely separate things in order to cover both. As I used them.. Malicious = intending harm or damage. Immoral = breaking a rule or law or even possibly an ethos. May not be Dictionary correct, but that's what I intended.

You guys always do a great job in debates /discussions so I look forward to your replies.
I'd also like to hear from a mod if they don't mind chiming in on this.. what they personally use to determine if a post should be closed...etc.. Experts have definitely had their say :)

Aet
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#9 no2pencil  Icon User is online

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 02:03 PM

View PostAeternalis, on 21 Oct, 2009 - 09:24 AM, said:

The topic was closed by a moderator,

& so you re-open the topic for discussion...

Quote

But if you ask me.. you can use a pen to write poetry or stab someone in the neck with it.. it's not the pen it's the person.

This is exactly why we close such topics. It isn't about the poster, & sometimes it isn't even about the direct responses. But if someone is trying to do something that can be used by others for illegal practices, we can't allow it. Sure, you could hijack your game to do whatever whatever. It's your game, you bought it, & it's your right to void whatever pre-set guidelines were laid out by the game manufacturer as to what not to do with the game. But if we allow for the topic to stay open, & people are sharing those solutions, then others can see this, hijack their own game, & then take those cheats to on line play. Now Dream In Code has shared unethical solutions that are involving pay-per-month accounts, ect, ect, ect.


View PostAeternalis, on 21 Oct, 2009 - 02:54 PM, said:

@Wolf

Quote

Who cares if it's moral or not? It's against forum rules. Go request your help somewhere else.


Where does it state that Hooking a DLL for personal use on your PC is against the rules? What rule does that fall under.. not being rude.. just seriously hadn't seen that rule.. can you quote it for me?

It's about being responsible, & conducting yourself in a respectful manor that others follow.

If you truly need a rule that spells out online responsibility, well, then that's really your problem & not ours.
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#10 Kanvus  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 02:15 PM

not to discredit this site as it is pretty neat in its own ways; it is really just a General place for questions. truth is, most people here aren't familiar with your interests or have the experience to answer your problems the way you want. but one thing is for sure, everyone alive is a Moral Expert and when given the opportunity, will close your threads and posts if mood strikes them. it's nice to believe anyone in power has some senses but really, the ones with the senses have spent their lives avoiding power. it's a bummer but luckily there are places that specialize exactly in what isn't covered here.
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#11 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 02:20 PM

I don't understand your second point. Mainly because of the sentence stricture.
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#12 Aeternalis  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:16 PM

@ KYA ... were you talking to me? If you were.. The second point was referencing the post you spoke of in the last paragraph of your first post in this thread.. something about a teacher teaching his students unethical practices.. you said it was in the corner cubicle.. still havn't had time to go find it.

we clear?


Ok, No.2Pencil .. actually I didn't reopen the topic. This thread is not about hooking an executable. This thread is about why that thread was closed. You implying I did something wrong by posting this thread in the heated topics section bothers me, but hey your entitled to your opinion of me. All I was doing is trying to get an idea of the basis we use (meaning the DIC community) to close threads. If you see this thread as improper, or believe it to be malicious in nature.. perhaps you should close it... B)

In your second paragraph you said this:

Quote

But if someone is trying to do something that can be used by others for illegal practices, we can't allow it.


You simply can't support that as stated. Perhaps you meant to say something else. The reason I say that is if that statement were true, you would need to close every thread in the web development section because they could use those techniques to develop a kiddie porn website. It's a broad general statement. And you are not responsible for what people use the technology for.. we are simply helping people understand the technology.

I dont really want to get into another gun analogy to illustrate that.

Quote

But if we allow for the topic to stay open, & people are sharing those solutions, then others can see this, hijack their own game, & then take those cheats to on line play. Now Dream In Code has shared unethical solutions that are involving pay-per-month accounts, ect, ect, ect.


this section really just reiterates the above thought that somehow dream in code will be held responsible for explaining a particular technology that may or may not be used unethically.

I guess I just don't understand why it is applied to some topics, and not all topics. I mean shouldn't it be applied to ANY code that could be used unethically?
And doesn't that basically put DIC out of business? I mean why assume one piece of code to be used unethically and another not?

Quote

It's about being responsible, & conducting yourself in a respectful manor that others follow.

If you truly need a rule that spells out online responsibility, well, then that's really your problem & not ours.


Hey I get the idea of trying to do the right thing. And I do conduct myself in a respectful manor. (Have you seen me post any flames?)

I just don't get how assuming someone is going to be a criminal is being responsible. Also, this particular anomoly seems to go against the idea of this site being a help site.
I don't need a rule. I don't need anything. I'm completely happy to continue posting here as I have with no changes to the format. Nobody forces me to come here and help, If I didn't like it I wouldn't be posting here. I simply was seeking to understand the method you guys use to determine what posts should be closed.

I think I understand how you do it. Now I'm just wondering if that goes for ALL mods here. Thanks for the reply!
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#13 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:19 PM

No, my comment was directed to Kanvus.


Read the TOS

Quote

Public Disagreements with Administration/Staff or Guidelines: You agree that if you disagree with Dream.In.Code website policy or action of a staff member, you will not post public arguments or disagreements nor attempt to petition the owner/administration to change policy through posts, polls, email, PM or any other service found within the Dream.In.Code Website. If you disagree, you may respectfully email the owner of Dream.In.Code. The owner does not endorse or recommend any of the opinions or ideas contributed by its users. However, The owner permits others to make judgments about your Messages.


aside from the quote(s) about circumventing a computer system

Common sense says to take it to a PM with the mod in question if you're really that upset over the thread being closed.

This post has been edited by KYA: 21 October 2009 - 03:29 PM

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#14 no2pencil  Icon User is online

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:40 PM

View PostAeternalis, on 21 Oct, 2009 - 04:16 PM, said:

Ok, No.2Pencil .. actually I didn't reopen the topic.

If you are going to quote me, quote me in my entirety. Don't quote me in a way to seem clever or calm on your side, & make me out to be hostile.

As I said "you reopen it for discussion". It's obvious that you are simply playing words here.
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#15 AdamSpeight2008  Icon User is offline

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Re: How to stop a hooker

Posted 21 October 2009 - 03:48 PM

It's not an easy line to walk being on the team, as it hard for some non-team members to differentiate between the Member of the Team (Mentor, Moderator, Administrator and WebMaster) acting on behalf of site and that member's own opinion.

I personally use As Mod: the clearly differentiate them.
There is a Gentleman's Agreement within the team that a team member who posts their opinion & views on a subject matter contained in a thread can not close it.

When you joined Dream.In.Code it is analogous to entering a club / casino / stripclub, which has house rules.
If you want to enjoy the entertainment and resources of the establishment you have to follow and respect their rules.

Sometimes those rules suck. If you break the rules (Like touching the merchandise) you could be forcible removed.
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