Is VB.Net really that bad?

The endless VB.Net discussion

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#31 Goethals  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 19 February 2010 - 05:28 AM

It's all about what you're used to work in.
When I began working, I was used to C#, C++, PHP ...
Most companies around here program in VB.net though,
so soon enouph I had to learn to work with it.
At first, for me too, its syntax seemed non-logical,
chaotic, now 2 years later however, beeing used to
the VB syntax, I no longer share this feeling.
In the contrary, I read VB.net MUCH easier now then
C#. My advice is, learn the language you think you'll
be using later on. (ex. the language that most companies
in your area use)

About VB.net not beeing a mature language, in my experience,
a good programmer can make really good, performant apps with
them, as good as he could build an app in Java, C#, ...
The programmer has more to do with an app then the language
he's programming in. Addapting to situations we're not used to,
abstract thinking, aint for nothing one of the most important skills
for a programmer. Beyond that, its all about subjective preference.
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#32 woodjom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:16 AM

View PostRaynes, on 25 December 2009 - 12:23 PM, said:

I wouldn't be caught dead teaching VB in any form to anybody as a first language. The things you mentioned, and because of the massive verbosity and wordyness of this language, coupled with the fact that everything upon everything is capitalized turns me off considerably.


First off Raynes, VB is probably the best language to start off with. Since VB is a line language and not a bracket language, it teaches code compliance through sectioning. VB was my first language to learn and taught me the basics of programming. C/C+/C++/C#/Java (Bracket Languages) all are great language but require a keen sense of details that VB does not. I only use the bracket languages when it is totally necessary and only when it cant be done through VB.

The bracket languages are generally used by Desktop Programmers (Computer Science professionals) and VB is used by IT professionals (MIS). The key difference between these two types is the fact that Desktop programmers do nothing but keyboard type every day and IT professionals use it as a tool and dont code all day. This inherent difference is the benefit of VB. IT Professional dont need the complexity nor detail that the bracket languages offer but only need to design something in 2 weeks that will work with minimal coding and time spent.

View PostRaynes, on 25 December 2009 - 12:23 PM, said:

I stand by my original argument, and that is that there are so many better languages out there, there is no reason for VB.NET to exist, or be used unless it's required by work (I feel sorry for you), and defending it is just plain redundant.

There is hardly ever a time when VB.NET is better than another language at any particular task, it doesn't even have that going for it.

Beyond fanboyism, VB.NET just isn't that great. There are better options, and until that is no longer true, I'll continue trying my best to keep people away from the language. Bygones will be bygones, and I get flamed every time I so much as refer to VB.NET in a negative light, but it's certainly worth it.


This is an elitist statement and has no place in forums. If you dont like the language dont talk about it.

I have a clue for you Raynes, stay the H*LL out of the VB forums, otherwise ill start spicing up the C forums with my giberish non-sense about how C sucks and how VB rules. Pick your soap box up and go somewhere else cause we dont need you elitist comments here.
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#33 woodjom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 19 February 2010 - 08:35 AM

View PostRaynes, on 26 December 2009 - 05:05 PM, said:

I don't think anyone here against VB.NET has denied it's viability. Case sensitivity is a personal issue. I don't think I could live without case sensitivity. I just don't care to have to capitalize every little thing in a language. That's probably related to my usage of Haskell, where the only thing capitalized are the names of types and value constructors for those types.


First off VB is CASE-InSENSITIVE...meaning Dim var As Integer is the same as Dim VAR As Integer thereby defining the user to use useful and non-repeated variables in a namespace/class/structure/enum/etc. This causes the user to define their variables logically instead of variating them by a capital letter and saying "Hey look a new variable i can use, to keep the person after my confused". C-language did a poor job of restricting this behavior of its programmers. Also how is this less good?
Public Class Something
  Inherits SomeClass
  Implements IInterface
...
End Class

vs

public something :: someclass, iinterface
{
..
}



Seems to me, as i interpret C-code very day for the last 2 years to VB and have yet to figure our why they didnt put an explicity declaration between inheritance of a class and implementation of a interface. As well, no clear definition of a method or function aside from a declaration of a return value.


Raynes you just didnt pick up the Basic language and so cant see how others have. I have learned and used BasicA (85-92), Ansi-C (94-97), C/C++ (96-98), ForTran77 (94-97), Ada 95 (94-97), MFC-C++ (98-02), ATL-C++ (2002-2004), QBasic (02-98), VB6 (96-2004), VB.Net [FM1.0 (2002-2006), FM2.0 (2003-present), FM3.0 (2007-present) FM3.5 (2008-present), FM4.0b (2009-present)], PHP (2003-present), ASP.Net (2003-present), HTML (94-present). So i believe my knowledge base of bracket and line based languages far exceeds you one side experience and i still choose VB as it works for me when i need quick projects completed with minimal amount of errors. But i use bracket languages when it is the best answer to the problem at hand.

This post has been edited by woodjom: 19 February 2010 - 08:52 AM

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#34 raziel_  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 19 February 2010 - 10:53 AM

.NET frame work . Oh the inhumanity. Oh the 30 min install on 1 form with 3 text boxes.
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#35 LDelta Live  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 21 February 2010 - 07:25 PM

I find all the arguments that Visual Basic.Net teaches programmers bad programming habits, this is common sense, a VB.Net programmer will obviously program in VB.Net and not Java/C++/or some other language where those habits would be problematic. On the arguments that say Visual Basic.Net has a bad syntax, programming languages have to be different from each other, the whole point of making a new programming language is to introduce a new way of coding different from the current ones which includes making a new syntax. The way I see it, there's a programming language out there for everyone, some will like VB.Net, some won't, and that's the whole point of the diversity. I don't see a problem with the language itself, the only downside I see are the compiler and the framework which have a positive side but a negative side at the same time that really limits the application.
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#36 woodjom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 22 February 2010 - 07:18 AM

View PostLDelta Live, on 21 February 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

I find all the arguments that Visual Basic.Net teaches programmers bad programming habits

This is only as true as the person the taught the person. I have met just as many bracket language programmers that use bad structure and are super lazy when programming. bracket languages use alot of general statements. How is it that programmers of a general language are farm superior than programmers of a defined language?

View PostLDelta Live, on 21 February 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

this is common sense, a VB.Net programmer will obviously program in VB.Net and not Java/C++/or some other language where those habits would be problematic.

Any programmer that ties him/herself down to one language is just not able to be multi-lingual. Common sense does not apply to society. Anyone with any knowledge of the world knows to imply a standard is to be ignorant of a standard. Most bracket language programmers assume logic instead of simply stating it. I have seen more bracket language programmers that fail to comment and properly document their source than i have VB. Because VB is so bad, most of the ones i work with and know, "document, document, document."

You can easily transition from bracket to line languages and back again, you just have to learn the basics. That is how i have learned and used so many languages in my current carrier. Failure to adapt and learn leaves you behind.

View PostLDelta Live, on 21 February 2010 - 08:25 PM, said:

On the arguments that say Visual Basic.Net has a bad syntax, programming languages have to be different from each other, the whole point of making a new programming language is to introduce a new way of coding different from the current ones which includes making a new syntax. The way I see it, there's a programming language out there for everyone, some will like VB.Net, some won't, and that's the whole point of the diversity. I don't see a problem with the language itself, the only downside I see are the compiler and the framework which have a positive side but a negative side at the same time that really limits the application.


On this note, i would have to completely aggree with you. For one to say one language is better than the other cause one has more power than the other is simply say that you and your language are the best there is to offer. Sounds like America about, oh say 100 years ago, when we were having certain racial attitudes.

Again, VB is not meant for those that want to game-program, affect the system resources, and manage the severe low-lvl language data. It is great for Web design, interface design and actions, as well as user interaction handling. If you need anything outside of that, use a bracket language to get to the details for manipulation.
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#37 Guest_JD*


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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 27 February 2010 - 08:42 PM

My 2 cents

First off, .NET was ment to bring an end to a dieing style.
C# like C++ is slowly but surely getting out dated as things become more OOP and ORM compatible.
I have to strongly disagree that they provide a cleaner look. I've coded with both and many other languages over the years, and .Net is one of the easiest to look at and read languages to date. And outside of a few old libraries that havnt been classed off yet for .net, it encompasses almost everything you could possibly wanna do on microsoft software (screw Steve Jobs!) And slowly but surely those low level use libraries are being added.
Second .net makes building WPF apps (which are the big new wave and basically the what all the "next big things" are being geared off of) EZ! Yes, you can make em in c# and "have more control" or whatever, but why? just so you can make longer, laggy code? just wrap it up with basic and call it done.
The people complaining about .Net teaching bad habbits and blah blah blah are simply used to old ways and like everyone, are afraid of change. Get over it, the world is changing and coding is getting ezier and ezier which leads to more coders which leads to more coding which leads to more advancment in software technology. You wanna sit on you "good habbits" of 1995, fine, sit there by yourself tho, the rest of us will move on without you because in the end, we don't need you anymore. If you so stuck on "old" ways then you've already forgotten what first drew you to coding ... limitless possibilities you can create. Learn to move on!

Finally, i love it, and i hope it keeps getting easier and easier till eventually ORM will replace OOP alltogether and coding won't even hardly require writing any code! It's the dream of tomarrow, you don't like it, too bad, go crawl underneath your Commodore 64, wrap up in some BetaMax tape reels and wait for my button programmed robot to come vaporize you for being a waste of space.
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#38 Guest_JD*


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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 27 February 2010 - 08:59 PM

View PostNoBrain, on 19 February 2010 - 09:53 AM, said:

.NET frame work . Oh the inhumanity. Oh the 30 min install on 1 form with 3 text boxes.


you're an idiot btw.
if it's taking you a long time, then you obviously have 1 or all of the following problems:
- a really old computer
- a complete lack of knowledge for multithreading
- a complete lack of understanding of .NET
- a complete lack of understanding wpf (which is what 75% of most programs made for windows today are made with and runs fast as hell and provides all those nice graphical things like form transparency on a seperate thread)

YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!
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#39 woodjom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 07:33 AM

View PostJD, on 27 February 2010 - 09:42 PM, said:

Finally, i love it, and i hope it keeps getting easier and easier till eventually ORM will replace OOP alltogether and coding won't even hardly require writing any code! It's the dream of tomarrow, you don't like it, too bad, go crawl underneath your Commodore 64, wrap up in some BetaMax tape reels and wait for my button programmed robot to come vaporize you for being a waste of space.


First of JD, in its current forum and path ORM will not replace OOP as the data transmition of an OOP object to a SQL database has a high overhead. Not to mention standardizing the object so it can be transferred from one session to another without loss of information (think MD5 Checksum going into and then coming out of the database). As well, if they implemented said translation to standardization, then what about upgrading the DBMS to the next version, i would think initially it would be inserted as a BYTE type and thus be untranslatable from one to the other without some massaging to the query that pulls the information out and then translates it to the new one.

ORM has its place and currently in MS products it is using LINQ as a ORM equivalent. If you want a strictly ORM product then you will need to pretty much buy a development suite for this implementation.
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#40 SixOfEleven  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:56 AM

Personally, I have uses for VB.NET. When creating an application that works with a database, I prefer VB.NET for example. I believe it has been pointed out before, but the way VB.NET handles OOP is a little more difficult to work with than C#. The syntax is wordy, I would agree with that as well. The truth of the matter is, if you learn something about programming when you learn a first language, then the goal has been reached. If you learn how to work with arrays, methods/functions/subroutines whatever you want to call them, classes, branching, iteration, etc. then you have come out on top. It is all personal preference when somebody says, "Oh, you shouldn't learn that." I say that if you like the language, you understand the language, and you can program in the language then it is good. I work mostly with C# now, but I don't limit myself to that language. I'm very open to the other languages out there and understand that there are times when they are better suited to what I want to accomplish.

When you move to a new language, you will need to learn the syntax and grammar of the language. You need to learn how to think in that language. It is like moving to a new spoken language. It is better to try and learn how to think in French rather than to translate English into French.

Your programming style will evolve as you evolve as a programmer. If you pick up what others would call a bad habit, it can be broken. As you work more and more as a programmer you will learn new ideas and new ways to accomplish tasks. Your thinking will change as you are exposed to more concepts.
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#41 woodjom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:04 AM

View PostSixOfEleven, on 02 March 2010 - 09:56 AM, said:

Personally, I have uses for VB.NET. When creating an application that works with a database, I prefer VB.NET for example. I believe it has been pointed out before, but the way VB.NET handles OOP is a little more difficult to work with than C#. The syntax is wordy, I would agree with that as well. The truth of the matter is, if you learn something about programming when you learn a first language, then the goal has been reached. If you learn how to work with arrays, methods/functions/subroutines whatever you want to call them, classes, branching, iteration, etc. then you have come out on top. It is all personal preference when somebody says, "Oh, you shouldn't learn that." I say that if you like the language, you understand the language, and you can program in the language then it is good. I work mostly with C# now, but I don't limit myself to that language. I'm very open to the other languages out there and understand that there are times when they are better suited to what I want to accomplish.

When you move to a new language, you will need to learn the syntax and grammar of the language. You need to learn how to think in that language. It is like moving to a new spoken language. It is better to try and learn how to think in French rather than to translate English into French.

Your programming style will evolve as you evolve as a programmer. If you pick up what others would call a bad habit, it can be broken. As you work more and more as a programmer you will learn new ideas and new ways to accomplish tasks. Your thinking will change as you are exposed to more concepts.


Very well spoken, and true. Most of my VB style is formed from the concepts i learned while in ForTran, Ada, various C styles, and PHP. I only see VB for what it is, a language to write a program.

As you say, VB is wordy, and that is true, but I think that is more of a benefit than a flaw. But for those that are consumed with quick coding, then yes it is a flaw as you spend more time "spelling out what you are doing" than actually doing the task. The caveat is that with VB, the point is well defined and displayable.

As most of us have explained VB is not better or worse than any other language, just a different way of programming the same design and concept.
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#42 Asscotte  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:30 PM

Quote

As most of us have explained VB is not better or worse than any other language, just a different way of programming the same design and concept.


As you said that I just thought a safer concept too. As if the multitude of the new generation of programmers move towards a high level programming language it leaves those who know low level languages to earn more, until microsoft decides that they are no longer officially supporting C which is likely to be in the next three or four releases of Windows as they try to move people to C++ on windows.

Despite that though there are many good robust applications that have been written in .net and as PC has already said the .net framework is the .net framework, whatever language you actually write it in it goes through the same compiler and the same optimisations meaning you could output exactly the same byte code from compiling either C# code or VB code.

For example Google "Paint.net", and you will see a whole host of results and that is a legitimate product which is used by millions of people.

Also adding to the augment over usability, VB and C# are becoming increasingly non platform dependant when used with things like MONO or other compilers, this means that ultimately in the future VB and C# may begin to share some of the power from C++, though only a little probably, but we can already see some of it trickling through in the form of the new Windows 7 API pack that was entirely written in C# and could possibly be ported to VB very easily.

How does it matter what language something is programmed in if it does the same job and is potentially better managed, as in regular GC's, and basic System MSG handling, that is not the kind of power you give to people who don't know how to use it. And I am sure many business feel safe knowing that an application cannot cause major damage by not handling the closing of threads properly rather than one that doesn't because even if the developer doesn't close the threads properly it is handled by the Framework that acts as both a protective cushion and a launchpad.

Nice to know this thread hasn't got too out of hand :whistling:
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#43 woodjom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:48 PM

View PostAsscotte, on 03 March 2010 - 02:30 PM, said:

Nice to know this thread hasn't got too out of hand :whistling:


Take the C-fanatics out of the thread and its a relatively pleasant thread to have a conversation in.
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#44 motcom  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 04 March 2010 - 03:26 AM

Well, I know both C# and VB.Net, currently getting hands on with PHP and refreshing my Javascripting...

No hard feeling to any of the languages, but i guess its about what is applied.

Where I am currently working everything is written in VB.Net and the other programmers also just use VB.Net. Its better to have just one language, be it VB.Net or C#. Imagine C# and VB.Net mixed and some only know either one of the 2 languages. It's going to slow down production I recon...

I learned Turbo C/C++ and as second language VB6, that was quite a difference from having no IDE to "a" IDE and Intellisense. It was quicker to develop and debug (VB6) but no classes. Then came the .net and since then learning VB was a whole new experience. Getting into OO programmning was almost from starting from the beginning, but hey you can't tell me you stop learning as a programmer.

My experince made form C/C++ helped me alot getting into C# and understanding Syntax similar to it.

My Guess is to know more is better.
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#45 raziel_  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is VB.Net really that bad?

Posted 04 March 2010 - 05:55 AM

i have to disagree a little bit with you VB6 have little bit of OOP and it do have classes :) just no inheritance:
http://wiki.answers....amming_language
still a mix from C# and VB.NET it sound to me like horror movie even that you can do it with the unsafe region thing. as for learning vb.net i agree it was a whole new experience because of the typing structure and the new futures but is not much different from vb6.

This post has been edited by NoBrain: 04 March 2010 - 05:56 AM

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