[LoveIsNull]

Allow me if you will to just try and wrap up what I have to say about prohibition and it's enforcement by noble men who may very well have their hearts in the right place with good intentions in mind. I have indeed used a lot of words to try and get my point across, and I am about to use very many more. I strive to present to people the fullest and most powerful picture of the other side of the drug war that I possibly can. This is not intended to paint the picture that drugs aren't bad for you, just that prohibition is the real monkey on societies back and it could actually be stopped.

Is it me rationalizing? Naturally, I've considered that possibility myself. But, I still conclude from all I have experienced; seen, read, written and thought about this, over the past seven years of my life, that the things I have to say [about prohibition] are for the most part true and universally so. I've even dawned upon how to realize rationalizations. Perhaps those who are eminently rationalistic use less words to defend things over time and those who are realistic use more until they run out of words and ways with which to elucidate.
Considering how it is that anything even remotely non-negative about drugs (except alcohol or caffeine) is so frequently ostracized, I feel the elaborate testimony into my personal experiences is highly relevant to the matter at hand and to facilitate an understanding into the dismantlement of the myth that prohibition and enforcement of current drug laws is for any reason good for society. It is really only good to the terrorist and criminal organizations who can profit from the black market status of such frequently sought after substances. Perhaps it is also good to the powers that be, to keep us in check and a staggering percentage of the male (and especially, ahem- African American, male) population behind bars. It works wonders in politics to provide the illusion that certain affiliations are "tough on crime", redirect attention, or point the blame elsewhere. And, it sure provides a great niche for the doctors of rich people like Michael Jackson, too. Interestingly enough all the drugs Michael was on were 'legitimately prescribed', and much more dangerous than your primary street drugs of concern.
I suppose the status quo dictates that all drug users are morally wrong and disgusting human beings, if they're even human at all! Humans and drugs go too far back to be dismissed so quickly. They are intricately woven into the fabric of our existence. Sometimes I think they strive so hard to get our attention for a reason. It is a common misconception that in order for a substance to exert an effect on consciousness it must be physically damaging to the brain or body. This is simply not the case. Some substances are undoubtedly toxic at very low dosages, methamphetamine is a dangerous drug. Substances like LSD, psilocybin and of course the primary cannabinoid's present in marijuana are only potentially lethal at dosages that are virtually impossible to consume by ordinary means, not that they wouldn't have profound effects on the mind for that temporary duration which they are exerting those effects.
I indeed have a high sense of appreciation for mind altering chemicals. They're all so magnificently interesting and wonderfully varied in the ways they work and how they might make a person feel. Yet I get a constant impression that many of those who live among us think that all drugs are more or less the same, worthless and intrinsically evil as the one's who use them. Ironically, in my high school experiences it typically seemed like the asshole jocks primarily drank alcohol, while the people who engaged in marijuana smoking or other experimentation were for the most part likely to be more accepting of things. But even those people turned into assholes when they drank enough! Smoke too much pot and you'll forget there was ever a problem before any violence can escalate. No matter what, people are going to hate what they don't understand, hate it and try to destroy it even if it is no real harm to them, except in this case it can't be destroyed no matter what.
If you could for a second just try to see through whatever image your mind draws up of your stereotypically drug user. Even if you might have somehow had a bad run in with somebody you assumed was on or involved in drugs. I assure you that the drug isn't entirely at fault, the fault lies with the person. Someone who is an asshole will be an asshole whether they're on drugs or not. That is, a drug might appear to bring out the worst in someone, but it didn't just plant those qualities there. Such tendencies begin to manifest before any drug use occurs. Then, how can we be certain just what exactly was caused by the drug and what was due to prohibition and it's impact on a users' mind?
Here is a really good opportunity for me to break this down for you, in terms of Nulls' simple[y too complicated for me to consistently explain here] theory of human existence in the universe. Remember now that shit happens all the time. This shit would include you, and of course, drugs. Of course, you happen all the time...and drugs happen all the time as well, thus the odds are tremendously in favor of shit happening to you as a possible result of drugs. But hold on, wait a second... in the society we live in, there is also a prohibition that happens all the time! Existing logic, even history has shown that prohibition has not, does not, will not ever actually remove drugs from the list of 'vices' or shit that happens in everyday human existence in the universe. It will never discourage use, only proper use. Thus, it is not only tremendously likely that shit'll happen to you because of drugs, it is outrageously improbable that nothing will ever happen to you as a result of drugs and/or prohibition.
As a result, whatever 'consequences' will now be greatly enhanced; for an addict it means that an arrest for possession of the smallest amount of a substance could possibly lead to being dragged to jail or a 'State Hospital' (a teeny tiny step up, maybe) to experience withdrawal symptoms... opioid dependence is characterized by an acute physical withdrawal syndrome: chills, cramps, cold sweats, goose bumps, excessive yawning, upset stomach with nausea and/or diarrhea, insomnia, muscular aches, bone aches, aches in places you didn't know existed and these are just the physical symptoms not to mention what is going on in your head. The withdrawal from opioid's is rarely fatal, though you'll certainly desire death or a bag of dope, and fast! I would wager that the only reason we don't have dope sick junkies offing themselves left and right is because they just don't have the energy to! Still, complications can arise and lead to death, especially dehydration. (Side note: there are some substances that harbor more severe withdrawal syndromes, extreme heavy use of barbiturates, benzodiazepines and alcohol, for instance, more frequently leads to things like seizures, coma and death.)
People are, unfortunately, forced to withdraw "cold turkey" every day, even though more comfortable and sensibly feasible- some might say humane, solutions are attainable. Even better ones might be had if people could get past their urge via law enforcement to simply throw the one's they can catch in concrete cages. Even in cases where it is your first offense and you might not necessarily face immediate jail time, probation\parole will still throw you into the system for some period of time. Being in the prison system is definitely worse, but either way you'll have to deal with good ol' authority figures who not only have a vested interest in further litigation against you but who probably only received limited and probably slightly twisted training in how to handle junkies (remember we're all the same!). Odds are this will only keep you clean enough not to get caught, and some people will do some freaky things to keep from letting the man obtain or be able to accurately survey their pee. At the end of the day, the hostility and rage against the 'machine' and that sense that you're just an outcast in society only grows, longing for the day when your pee is just yours once again and you and your drug of choice can catch up and frolic about in the night.

I could go on, and on, and on. Perhaps I'll write a book some day, too bad it would never be published.
In any case, if you're somehow unable to find any way to relate to my statements, if you truly cannot see how such blasphemy could have the slightest flicker of truth; in that case I can only beg that you'll at least try to trust me. Remember above all else that I am not trying to get anybody to believe that no harm ever came to anybody as a result of drugs, just that those harms are made extensively worse and indiscernible by prohibition. I want to show people that prohibition makes it all so much worse, because I truly believe that if I can get a few folks to get their minds up and thinking for themselves then they might influence others to stop this atrocity and actually get together and make this a better world for my children and yours'. Were it not so I would not be wasting so much time here with so much to say.

This post has been edited by LoveIsNull: 03 January 2010 - 01:37 AM

[modi123_1]

LoveIsNull, on 3 Jan, 2010 - 02:33 AM, said:

Allow me if you will to just try and wrap up what I have to say about prohibition and it's enforcement by noble men who may very well have their hearts in the right place with good intentions in mind. I have indeed used a lot of words to try and get my point across, and I am about to use very many more. I strive to present to people the fullest and most powerful picture of the other side of the drug war that I possibly can. This is not intended to paint the picture that drugs aren't bad for you, just that prohibition is the real monkey on societies back and it could actually be stopped.

Is it me rationalizing? Naturally, I've considered that possibility myself. But, I still conclude from all I have experienced; seen, read, written and thought about this, over the past seven years of my life, that the things I have to say [about prohibition] are for the most part true and universally so. I've even dawned upon how to realize rationalizations. Perhaps those who are eminently rationalistic use less words to defend things over time and those who are realistic use more until they run out of words and ways with which to elucidate.
Considering how it is that anything even remotely non-negative about drugs (except alcohol or caffeine) is so frequently ostracized, I feel the elaborate testimony into my personal experiences is highly relevant to the matter at hand and to facilitate an understanding into the dismantlement of the myth that prohibition and enforcement of current drug laws is for any reason good for society. It is really only good to the terrorist and criminal organizations who can profit from the black market status of such frequently sought after substances. Perhaps it is also good to the powers that be, to keep us in check and a staggering percentage of the male (and especially, ahem- African American, male) population behind bars. It works wonders in politics to provide the illusion that certain affiliations are "tough on crime", redirect attention, or point the blame elsewhere. And, it sure provides a great niche for the doctors of rich people like Michael Jackson, too. Interestingly enough all the drugs Michael was on were 'legitimately prescribed', and much more dangerous than your primary street drugs of concern.
I suppose the status quo dictates that all drug users are morally wrong and disgusting human beings, if they're even human at all! Humans and drugs go too far back to be dismissed so quickly. They are intricately woven into the fabric of our existence. Sometimes I think they strive so hard to get our attention for a reason. It is a common misconception that in order for a substance to exert an effect on consciousness it must be physically damaging to the brain or body. This is simply not the case. Some substances are undoubtedly toxic at very low dosages, methamphetamine is a dangerous drug. Substances like LSD, psilocybin and of course the primary cannabinoid's present in marijuana are only potentially lethal at dosages that are virtually impossible to consume by ordinary means, not that they wouldn't have profound effects on the mind for that temporary duration which they are exerting those effects.
I indeed have a high sense of appreciation for mind altering chemicals. They're all so magnificently interesting and wonderfully varied in the ways they work and how they might make a person feel. Yet I get a constant impression that many of those who live among us think that all drugs are more or less the same, worthless and intrinsically evil as the one's who use them. Ironically, in my high school experiences it typically seemed like the asshole jocks primarily drank alcohol, while the people who engaged in marijuana smoking or other experimentation were for the most part likely to be more accepting of things. But even those people turned into assholes when they drank enough! Smoke too much pot and you'll forget there was ever a problem before any violence can escalate. No matter what, people are going to hate what they don't understand, hate it and try to destroy it even if it is no real harm to them, except in this case it can't be destroyed no matter what.
If you could for a second just try to see through whatever image your mind draws up of your stereotypically drug user. Even if you might have somehow had a bad run in with somebody you assumed was on or involved in drugs. I assure you that the drug isn't entirely at fault, the fault lies with the person. Someone who is an asshole will be an asshole whether they're on drugs or not. That is, a drug might appear to bring out the worst in someone, but it didn't just plant those qualities there. Such tendencies begin to manifest before any drug use occurs. Then, how can we be certain just what exactly was caused by the drug and what was due to prohibition and it's impact on a users' mind?
Here is a really good opportunity for me to break this down for you, in terms of Nulls' simple[y too complicated for me to consistently explain here] theory of human existence in the universe. Remember now that shit happens all the time. This shit would include you, and of course, drugs. Of course, you happen all the time...and drugs happen all the time as well, thus the odds are tremendously in favor of shit happening to you as a possible result of drugs. But hold on, wait a second... in the society we live in, there is also a prohibition that happens all the time! Existing logic, even history has shown that prohibition has not, does not, will not ever actually remove drugs from the list of 'vices' or shit that happens in everyday human existence in the universe. It will never discourage use, only proper use. Thus, it is not only tremendously likely that shit'll happen to you because of drugs, it is outrageously improbable that nothing will ever happen to you as a result of drugs and/or prohibition.
As a result, whatever 'consequences' will now be greatly enhanced; for an addict it means that an arrest for possession of the smallest amount of a substance could possibly lead to being dragged to jail or a 'State Hospital' (a teeny tiny step up, maybe) to experience withdrawal symptoms... opioid dependence is characterized by an acute physical withdrawal syndrome: chills, cramps, cold sweats, goose bumps, excessive yawning, upset stomach with nausea and/or diarrhea, insomnia, muscular aches, bone aches, aches in places you didn't know existed and these are just the physical symptoms not to mention what is going on in your head. The withdrawal from opioid's is rarely fatal, though you'll certainly desire death or a bag of dope, and fast! I would wager that the only reason we don't have dope sick junkies offing themselves left and right is because they just don't have the energy to! Still, complications can arise and lead to death, especially dehydration. (Side note: there are some substances that harbor more severe withdrawal syndromes, extreme heavy use of barbiturates, benzodiazepines and alcohol, for instance, more frequently leads to things like seizures, coma and death.)
People are, unfortunately, forced to withdraw "cold turkey" every day, even though more comfortable and sensibly feasible- some might say humane, solutions are attainable. Even better ones might be had if people could get past their urge via law enforcement to simply throw the one's they can catch in concrete cages. Even in cases where it is your first offense and you might not necessarily face immediate jail time, probation\parole will still throw you into the system for some period of time. Being in the prison system is definitely worse, but either way you'll have to deal with good ol' authority figures who not only have a vested interest in further litigation against you but who probably only received limited and probably slightly twisted training in how to handle junkies (remember we're all the same!). Odds are this will only keep you clean enough not to get caught, and some people will do some freaky things to keep from letting the man obtain or be able to accurately survey their pee. At the end of the day, the hostility and rage against the 'machine' and that sense that you're just an outcast in society only grows, longing for the day when your pee is just yours once again and you and your drug of choice can catch up and frolic about in the night.

I could go on, and on, and on. Perhaps I'll write a book some day, too bad it would never be published.
In any case, if you're somehow unable to find any way to relate to my statements, if you truly cannot see how such blasphemy could have the slightest flicker of truth; in that case I can only beg that you'll at least try to trust me. Remember above all else that I am not trying to get anybody to believe that no harm ever came to anybody as a result of drugs, just that those harms are made extensively worse and indiscernible by prohibition. I want to show people that prohibition makes it all so much worse, because I truly believe that if I can get a few folks to get their minds up and thinking for themselves then they might influence others to stop this atrocity and actually get together and make this a better world for my children and yours'. Were it not so I would not be wasting so much time here with so much to say.

Wow.. there was no coherent argument what so ever in there. I see nothing but specious claims and no warrants. (I would have given you partial credit if the lyrics to 'Cherry Pie' appeared, but no.). I know this is the internet so prolonged arguments are invalid (see below), but really. Let's tighten things up and at least pretend you care someone has a response.

At best I might be able to extrapolate "drugs are bad, but JAILS are the problem". Well no shit. Jails are your punishment and deterrent for using a set number of chemicals that society has determined it does not want in the collective. You admit this here: "Being in the prison system is definitely worse" .

So what's your solution? You present none. Legalize everything from glue eating to heroin? Maybe slap some government regulation on them so Timmy the Tot can pickup a speedball at the local 7-11 (shit maaaaaaan... damn macaroni pictures and glitter assignments are busting my balls. I need to finish ten of them tonight!).

I have to admit, after statements like "the things I have to say [about prohibition] are for the most part true and universally so. " my brain shifted into neutral. Seriously, what grounds are we to accept any amount of gibberish spewing forth across the inter-tubez at 2.33am following that statement?

Even your attempts at comparisons fail. Some how "morally wrong" and "worthless" get changed into "intrinsically evil" a few lines down.

"I feel the elaborate testimony into my personal experiences is highly relevant to the matter at hand and to facilitate an understanding into the dismantlement of the myth that prohibition and enforcement of current drug laws is for any reason good for society." - Fail. See above.

[GenHornet18]

The entry point was way to long to read, so I'm going to go by the topic header and say prohibition is not a threat to society. It's proven to be an effective rehabilitation technique by reinstating past criminals back into common society. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.


@modi Nice picture, it summarizes this thread perfectly

[LoveIsNull]

modi123_1, on 3 Jan, 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

Wow.. there was no coherent argument what so ever in there. I see nothing but specious claims and no warrants. (I would have given you partial credit if the lyrics to 'Cherry Pie' appeared, but no.). I know this is the internet so prolonged arguments are invalid (see below), but really. Let's tighten things up and at least pretend you care someone has a response.

At best I might be able to extrapolate "drugs are bad, but JAILS are the problem". Well no shit. Jails are your punishment and deterrent for using a set number of chemicals that society has determined it does not want in the collective. You admit this here: "Being in the prison system is definitely worse" .

So what's your solution? You present none. Legalize everything from glue eating to heroin? Maybe slap some government regulation on them so Timmy the Tot can pickup a speedball at the local 7-11 (shit maaaaaaan... damn macaroni pictures and glitter assignments are busting my balls. I need to finish ten of them tonight!).

I have to admit, after statements like "the things I have to say [about prohibition] are for the most part true and universally so. " my brain shifted into neutral. Seriously, what grounds are we to accept any amount of gibberish spewing forth across the inter-tubez at 2.33am following that statement?

Even your attempts at comparisons fail. Some how "morally wrong" and "worthless" get changed into "intrinsically evil" a few lines down.

"I feel the elaborate testimony into my personal experiences is highly relevant to the matter at hand and to facilitate an understanding into the dismantlement of the myth that prohibition and enforcement of current drug laws is for any reason good for society." - Fail. See above.

No, offence, modi123_1, but you're probably one of the most ignorant people on here. If in your mind "this is the Internet so prolonged arguments are invalid", then quit prolonging the argument and go ahead and do whatever the hell better, more important things it is that you have to do.
I apologize, perhaps I didn't make it clear that this was triggered by/is related to a post made in the Lounge. If you are truly interested in what grounds I have for this 'gibberish' you can go back and read those previous posts.

It really is remarkable how people really do like to pretend that I say things that I do not. If all you know about drugs and the people who use them is what you've heard from the DARE instructor or read in Go Ask Alice (a good work of fiction) then no, I honestly don't care what you have to say about them or prohibition. Maybe you feel the same way about my statements, I kind of figure that by default. The major difference between me and you, I suppose, is that I have been addicted to drugs and come to realize that the prohibition plays a profound role in pushing kids into them. This is my first hand experience.
Here is the reality of the situation, buddy- if I wanted to speed-ball when I was 16 I certainly wouldn't have had to go as far as the local 7-11 to get the ingredients. Any street corner or even the class room down the hall would have likely have sufficed. Could you imagine that my neither my fellow classmates or Paco ever checked for an ID?! The guy at 7-11 or any liquor store typically would, thus it was almost always more difficult for my peers to get alcohol than any drug.
You think jail actually deters anybody from wanting to use any of those "set number of chemicals that society has determined it does not want in the collective"? That totally explains why the US leads the world in illicit drug use and has the highest prison population per capita in the world. Not only does the thought of the punishment at the hands of 'the man' not deter people from using, societies' stonewall approach to drugs lends to both more use and more abuse.
I know this might be very difficult for some people to understand, but it is like the forbidden fruit. When you keep telling a child not to do something over and over again what do you actually think is liable to happen? Couple this with telling one that it is okay for adults to put certain substances into their bodies and not others. This might seem to work out for the better half of their adolescence, but sooner or later the picture gets rather foggy. As a child faces more and more of reality, they will very likely start to become curious and confused and later on realize that it seems like those legal things that are supposedly okay are exorbitantly worse than certain (but not all) illegal things that are supposedly horrible and supposedly have no potential as medicine. I am not saying they are or are not, I am not say they do or do not, I am saying that it doesn't matter because certain people are always going to question what they're being told to do or not to do; many will want to try things on their on, for themselves. And others, of course, will want to try things because everybody else is.

Quote

[Edited to remove indications of laziness and stupidity]... prohibition is not a threat to society. It's proven to be an effective rehabilitation technique by reinstating past criminals back into common society. If it ain't broken, don't fix it.

There is no possible way you could prove that prohibition has any semblance whatsoever to "an effective rehabilitation technique" or in any way successfully "reinstates criminals back into common society". You've obviously never heard of the term recidivism (don't just look it up in a dictionary, really find out what it is and how it occurs). I outlined in a previous post in more detail just how exactly the punishments of prohibition only lend to more abuse, primarily because the system doesn't treat addicts as they should and prisons are not equipped to handle addiction as a medical problem as it should be treated. In most instances involvement in the system is just likely to hinder a person who is abusing drugs in their recovery; merely helping to perpetuate the inevitable relapse later- which just could kill them if the guy who cuts it for drug lord fucks up even just a little bit with the fentanyl they put in the heroin, or they decide to add a veterinary drug like levamisole to the cocaine to make it all seem stronger.
The sheer amount of resources we have spent enforcing prohibition; three quarters of a century, the trillions of dollars gone and the fact drugs and drug use are more prevalent in society than ever should serve as some kind of indication that this isn't helping and really only hurts us more in the end! But I regress. The purpose of this thread was not only to "Share your views on prohibition", but also to share any alternatives as you see fit. As such, if your view is that everything is just fine the way it stands and we should just keep sitting here with our thumbs up our asses, you need not reply. Not only because I don't care what you have to say, and not only because I think it is wrong, but because that point of view is so mediocre we can safely consider it the default.
To clarify the topic, this is primarily intended to be the "alternatives to prohibition" thread- not the "s'all good witha thumb up mah bum" thread. Legalization may very well be an alternative to prohibition, but I never intended to conclude alone that all out legalization of every substance known to man should be the alternative. Legalization alternatives could be focused on a limited and/or more mild or low potency set of certain substances that, say- an opioid addict- might be likely to choose over heroin if it were cheaper, safer, available over the counter and able to provide sufficient relief of withdrawals. Similar alternatives include a sophisticated substance licensing system for adults, one that could allow strict limits on the types and quantities of substances able to be obtained and of course their purity.
Getting away from legalizing anything, 'there is decriminalization' which I believe would be the worst of both worlds because it doesn't take the substances off the black market or provide any of the benefits of a controlled market. There is also a such thing as a "heroin clinic", which they have experimented with in parts of Europe. These clinics off pure pharmaceutical heroin in controlled dosages to addicts who have simply not shown any progress by other means. Of course even just things like focusing more money on actual treatment, after school programs, health clinics, etc would be an alternative to our law enforcement fantasy. Maybe you've been in a health education class and smelled the bullshit; what other preventative educational methods do you think are available for our youth? Maybe you'd like to discuss other, more controversial substance abuse treatment methods like the psychedelic drug Ibogaine. This is a Shedule 1 substance under the CSA in the United States, considered to have absolutely no value in medicine. Treatment with Ibogaine, however, is available in Canada where it has been demonstrated not only to relieve the physical symptoms of withdrawal but to also remove much of the psychological cravings for months to years afterward in the majority of patients.
So, does anybody have anything intelligible to say, or what?

Edited to change "quarter century" to the actual and intended "three quarters of a century".

This post has been edited by LoveIsNull: 03 January 2010 - 09:18 PM

[KYA]

The whole "let everyone do whatever they want whenever they want" doesn't work out in reality.

[LoveIsNull]

Quote

Legalization may very well be an alternative to prohibition, but I never intended to conclude alone that all out legalization of every substance known to man should be the alternative.

Drugs are prohibited, and yet people still manage to do whichever of them they want whenever they want to. And you can talk about how they shouldn't be doing them all you want and fantasize about a world in which they don't exist, but in reality they do exist and well over 60 percent of American's have used one or more in their lifetime.

This post has been edited by LoveIsNull: 03 January 2010 - 09:12 PM

[KYA]

You're passionate and that's fantastic but any water you might have had in your argument flows out when you use a "well they're all jumping off a cliff, so I can" mentality.

The counter question is what percentage of people doing it makes it right? 60? 45? 33? Drugs exist so they I can use them. Yeah...ok...

[LoveIsNull]

What...the...
Please, quote exactly where I said that.

When I say that over 60% of American's have used an illicit substance, it should not be taken to mean that this is "what makes using drugs okay". It is supposed to be an indication of how the war on drugs is a failure, because drug use has only increased with enforcement.

Then again, Martin Luther King Jr did say:

Quote

One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

Make what you will of it.

This post has been edited by LoveIsNull: 03 January 2010 - 09:36 PM

[KYA]

LoveIsNull, on 3 Jan, 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

Drugs are prohibited, and yet people still manage to do whichever of them they want whenever they want to. And you can talk about how they shouldn't be doing them all you want and fantasize about a world in which they don't exist, but in reality they do exist and well over 60 percent of American's have used one or more in their lifetime.

[modi123_1]

Quote

"No, offence, modi123_1, but you're probably one of the most ignorant people on here. "

Most ignorant? Pffsst... please. I was attempting to educate you in where you failed in presentation.

Quote

"I apologize, perhaps I didn't make it clear that this was triggered by/is related to a post made in the Lounge. "

Sorry - you really are not that interesting enough that I would hang on every thread and post you make. I wandered across this and decided to offer some assistance - assuming you wanted to conduct a discussion and not bore everyone with an overly worded incomprehensible post.

Quote

"If all you know about drugs and the people who use them is what you've heard from the DARE instructor or read in Go Ask Alice (a good work of fiction) then no, I honestly don't care what you have to say about them or prohibition"

Ah shutting down the discussion already. Why not open your arms to those and expand their views.

Quote

"The major difference between me and you, I suppose, is that I have been addicted to drugs and come to realize that the prohibition plays a profound role in pushing kids into them."

I'm sorry you were addicted to them and some how you believe the removing prohibition would have prevented that.

Quote

"You think jail actually deters anybody from wanting to use"

I see friends, mentees, colleagues, and students day in and day out make the correct choices regarding life when it comes to the law. What's so hard about you doing the same?

Quote

"it is like the forbidden fruit. When you keep telling a child not to do something over and over again what do you actually think is liable to happen"

My god I am tired of this argument. You, and subsequently those who promote this idea, assume everyone is a weak willed and spineless sea monkey (they are very ugly by the way) that automatically must rebel because hey man.. their kids! That's what they want to do! Pffsst.. puulease. When my parents told me not to touch the stove because it was hot I listened. I didn't need to touch to find out my paw would get burned. If I did test the waters I was defiantly cognisant if my folks warned me against it then I should operate with caution. To this day I haven't sampled the fun of heroin because I saw the world of shit that ends up to addicts. Ohh.. but it's still out there! Let me rebel!... or I can use some common fucking sense and not do that. The forbidden fruit folk are the ones that harm society by saying it's okay to ignore that common sense part. No one wants to hurt Timmy the Tot's feelings saying he fucked up. Pat him on his head and blame the forbidden fruit. Screw off. Own up to your mistakes.

Quote

"As a child faces more and more of reality, they will very likely start to become curious and confused and later on realize that it seems like those legal things that are supposedly okay are exorbitantly worse than certain (but not all) illegal things that are supposedly horrible and supposedly have no potential as medicine."

Sly one there.. heroin is far worse that cigarettes buddy. Let's not try and lump everything together, okay?

Additionally I will give some weight to curious, but confused? See common sense.

Quote

"I am saying that it doesn't matter because certain people are always going to question what they're being told to do or not to do; many will want to try things on their on, for themselves. And others, of course, will want to try things because everybody else is.

Sure.. certain folk will. Some folk will do rashly stupid things and pay the price. If you feel the need to inject drugs into your body because you want to rebel and be cool to other folk go right a head. My spare change always needs a hobo's cup to go into. Burn out maaaaaan. Totally. Just because folks do stupid shit doesn't make it right for EVERYONE to do it. We all need lessons in our life, and thankfully some people step up to that plate for the rest of society.

I have yet to hear your alternative to prohibition. Oh.. legalize it because that's going to stop Cindy the crack head from breaking into my house or holding up my family at gun point for the money to buy more crack at 7-11. Yes.. crime will still exist because of drugs. Have you ever met anyone that had a hard core drug habit that kept a stable job? No... those folks are too strung out to perform. They will be poor. They will do what they need to do to obtain more drugs regardless if it's from Tron the Dealer or Troy the 7-11 clerk.

My alternative? Go after the meth labs, the drug mules, and the importing. Ramp that up. Shot to kill. Hang their heads on the borders to remind those that facilitating the supply is not acceptable.

This post has been edited by modi123_1: 03 January 2010 - 09:38 PM

[NeoTifa]

Bootlegging.

</thread>

[modi123_1]

LoveIsNull, on 3 Jan, 2010 - 10:45 PM, said:

Quote

Have you ever met anyone that had a hard core drug habit that kept a stable job?

I did, actually <removed>

Congrats - you are in the minority.

This post has been edited by OliveOyl3471: 03 January 2010 - 11:25 PM

[LoveIsNull]

Oh yah, also...Prohibition doesn't make it much more difficult to find drugs and become addicted to them. It certainly does make it more difficult for an addict to maintain their habit, because the black market value of the drug is now very heavily inflated. This might just be why alcoholics and tobacco smokers don't typically break into your house or hold you and your family at gun point. But of course if crack or heroin was ever legal the sky would fall, and seeing that you've so much to offer them and they obviously all have a personal vendetta against you they'll be smashing your windows in and raping your daughters left and right.

This post has been edited by LoveIsNull: 03 January 2010 - 10:07 PM

[Sethro117]

If prohibition would work then prescriptions wouldnt be such a huge drug market. We're failing there so tell us how to change so it works for the other drugs.

[OliveOyl3471]

All right. The insults and personal attacks are going to stop or the thread will be closed or removed.