Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

a question, not an opinion

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#16 merlinfire  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 24 February 2010 - 05:11 PM

View PostCupcakePirate, on 24 February 2010 - 01:41 PM, said:

I've always sort of made the connection that C# and .NET are kind of one and the same. Granted .NET isn't just for C# but for other languages as well, it's always seemed like the two very much go hand-in-hand. It's a little fitting to talk about intellisense with C#, at least from what I've seen of it.

The more I read here, and the more I learn C# the more excited I'm getting and loving programming again. Makes me wish I'd never left in the first place.



I had a lot of enthusiasm when I started with BASIC back in the day. But when I tried to graduate to C++, I lost a lot of steam. I was out of the loop for quite a long time...

Then I came back and tried Java and C#. I have the old enthusiasm back now.
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#17 eclipsed4utoo  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 24 February 2010 - 06:07 PM

View Postneptunusmaris, on 24 February 2010 - 09:05 AM, said:

Quote

Sorry, I voted you down for your post as I feel you were wrong on a lot of things but they are your opinions but may be misleading to a new comer.


Wow that bad that I had to get put in the negative? Really?

And I clearly stated "my opinion" ...NOT "that's the way you should go" ...


Wow....so you down voted everybody in this thread? Really shows your maturity.

I've up voted all of the posts that are negative.

This post has been edited by eclipsed4utoo: 24 February 2010 - 06:09 PM

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#18 poncho4all  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 24 February 2010 - 07:19 PM

I think that C# lets you train your logic, as it is easier to handle other things.
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#19 dawmail333  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 24 February 2010 - 07:54 PM

View Postponcho4all, on 24 February 2010 - 06:19 PM, said:

I think that C# lets you train your logic, as it is easier to handle other things.


I agree.

I actually started teaching myself VB in Highschool, 'bout halfway through yr8. I started with VB6 (on the school computers), but went home and found VB.Net 2005 on the net. I downloaded it, and now I don't look back! But yeah, VB.Net was a good start, made learning C# just learning the syntax, and yeah, I've expanded from there. I can now confidently code in VB.Net, C# and PHP, getting there with Python, and I'll probably start looking at some others before too much longer. And hell, I'd be happy to tackle C++ when I find a good IDE (Visual Studio Intellisense doesn't like Win32 C++).

So no, I don't think .Net is too user friendly: it's a great introduction to programming and programming logic in general: you don't have to spend all that much time learning logic and syntax, but get to focus on the logic and concepts. And then you get those that want to expand their skills, those are the ones that will start learning other languages, which will be easier for them with their newfound general programming skills.

Well, that's my $0.02 anyway.
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#20 Guest_SL33P*


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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 24 February 2010 - 08:55 PM

Dudes, stoners, friends. Pick any language you want and just learn. They all come together and you cant go wrong learning any language. None is better then the other. You can cry all you want but look at what language your reading this web page in. AH man who saw that coming! Sit your ass down and get to coding!!
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#21 Adkins  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 25 February 2010 - 04:16 AM

@Guest_SL33P: Wow. Just wow.

Now on to business. Most of my thoughts have already been said, but I will say them again, to see if people agree or disagree. Beginner programmers (myself included) always ask what language to learn. I have come to realize that programming languages don't work like that. Beginners have to learn the ideas behind programming. It doesn't matter what language you use, you will have to understand the basics of the thought process. You don't learn to make software by memorizing a language and regurgitating it onto the screen. You have to learn to think logically, solve the problem in your mind (or even on paper) without needing a programming language (Pseudo Code). Once you have done this you can look at what is required to implement the solution you have come up with. This will tell you which language is best for this particular problem. It won't always be the same language.

I think that C# allows new programmers to do just that. It is "easy" enough that you don't get bogged down with language specific problems all too often. Intellisense takes that two steps farther, by making it so you don't even have to know the language, you just have to know what you are looking for. C# has helped me immensely. I have started learning C, C++, and other older languages, but always got so hung up on certain language specific things, that I couldn't get into real programming, then my interest fizzled. Now with C# I have been going for some time and have gotten a certain degree of (dare I say it?!?) skill with it.

If I am completely and utterly wrong about this let me know. If not you can also let me know :P
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#22 eclipsed4utoo  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 25 February 2010 - 04:25 AM

View PostSL33P, on 24 February 2010 - 10:55 PM, said:

Dudes, stoners, friends. Pick any language you want and just learn. They all come together and you cant go wrong learning any language. None is better then the other. You can cry all you want but look at what language your reading this web page in. AH man who saw that coming! Sit your ass down and get to coding!!


Just so you know, this isn't a question about which language is better. Its a question about whether .Net is too easy for beginners, and whether a beginner should start in .Net if they are planning on moving to c++.
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#23 baavgai  Icon User is online

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 25 February 2010 - 06:11 AM

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View Postdawmail333, on 24 February 2010 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'd be happy to tackle C++ when I find a good IDE (Visual Studio Intellisense doesn't like Win32 C++).


Curiously, that's the only "too user friendly" instance I might agree with. Intellisense is brilliant, it makes my job easier; you can't help but love it. Other IDEs have such tools, but Microsoft's in definitely best of breed. However, such tools are not universal.

Part of learning a language is the hunt. No one knows all the functions. You pull up the APIs, read function references, search all kinds of documentation when working with a language. Being able to figure things out with just a text editor is required for some jobs. If you're used to the information you need being just a period away, handed to you by the IDE, then you've never had to develop the skill of deciphering specs.

Worse, if you aren't going to learn new things until the tool is ready to do the work for you. That does make for poor programmers. All the information you need is not always easily accessible or in one place. Tools that make programming easier are an aid; they shouldn't be a requirement.
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#24 neptunusmaris  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:15 AM

View Posteclipsed4utoo, on 24 February 2010 - 05:07 PM, said:

View Postneptunusmaris, on 24 February 2010 - 09:05 AM, said:

Quote

Sorry, I voted you down for your post as I feel you were wrong on a lot of things but they are your opinions but may be misleading to a new comer.


Wow that bad that I had to get put in the negative? Really?

And I clearly stated "my opinion" ...NOT "that's the way you should go" ...


Wow....so you down voted everybody in this thread? Really shows your maturity.

I've up voted all of the posts that are negative.



Really? I really don't give a crap about the reputation thing, just a forum, not the end of the world. I was just give SixOfEleven crap / joking of that matter. I could have -100000 rep. Don't... GIVE ..A ...DAMN. Just a forum, just a point system. Go a head and bash me all you want if it makes you look cooler in the forums or not.

This post has been edited by neptunusmaris: 25 February 2010 - 07:16 AM

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#25 KeyboardKowboy  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 25 February 2010 - 07:40 AM

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If you're used to the information you need being just a period away, handed to you by the IDE, then you've never had to develop the skill of deciphering specs.


Baavgai, I totally agree with you here. I've used quite a few IDE's, most of which have some form of intellisense, but Visual Studio's is by far the most fleshed out and functional.

I also believe that programmers should be careful not to rely solely on the IDE piping out the API. I have caught myself in the past assuming something, but until I dug into the API did I truly learn the meaning and function of what it was I needed to accomplish.
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#26 dawmail333  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 26 February 2010 - 06:39 AM

View Postbaavgai, on 25 February 2010 - 05:11 AM, said:

View Postdawmail333, on 24 February 2010 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'd be happy to tackle C++ when I find a good IDE (Visual Studio Intellisense doesn't like Win32 C++).


Curiously, that's the only "too user friendly" instance I might agree with. Intellisense is brilliant, it makes my job easier; you can't help but love it. Other IDEs have such tools, but Microsoft's in definitely best of breed. However, such tools are not universal.

Part of learning a language is the hunt. No one knows all the functions. You pull up the APIs, read function references, search all kinds of documentation when working with a language. Being able to figure things out with just a text editor is required for some jobs. If you're used to the information you need being just a period away, handed to you by the IDE, then you've never had to develop the skill of deciphering specs.

Worse, if you aren't going to learn new things until the tool is ready to do the work for you. That does make for poor programmers. All the information you need is not always easily accessible or in one place. Tools that make programming easier are an aid; they shouldn't be a requirement.


Quite true that... I have learned to code without an IDE though, I do a decent bit of that with PHP, and I could do it with VB if required (although VS is just a perfect match for it). What I want is an IDE for C++ as a form of training wheel, so I can focus on the more fundamental parts (syntax, memory management? etc), before learning to code without the 'wheels'. But yeah, I imagine it could very well be crippling to rely on an IDE.

Very good point, dear sir, but I still don't think it changes the original premise: VS/.Net/VB/C# offer fantastic training wheels for introducing developers.
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#27 CupcakePirate  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 26 February 2010 - 02:47 PM

View Postbaavgai, on 25 February 2010 - 04:11 AM, said:

View Postdawmail333, on 24 February 2010 - 08:54 PM, said:

I'd be happy to tackle C++ when I find a good IDE (Visual Studio Intellisense doesn't like Win32 C++).


Curiously, that's the only "too user friendly" instance I might agree with. Intellisense is brilliant, it makes my job easier; you can't help but love it. Other IDEs have such tools, but Microsoft's in definitely best of breed. However, such tools are not universal.

Part of learning a language is the hunt. No one knows all the functions. You pull up the APIs, read function references, search all kinds of documentation when working with a language. Being able to figure things out with just a text editor is required for some jobs. If you're used to the information you need being just a period away, handed to you by the IDE, then you've never had to develop the skill of deciphering specs.

Worse, if you aren't going to learn new things until the tool is ready to do the work for you. That does make for poor programmers. All the information you need is not always easily accessible or in one place. Tools that make programming easier are an aid; they shouldn't be a requirement.


You make an excellent point, and I definitely can agree with not wanting to become too reliant on this system. If a programmer ever needs to know how something works and they don't have access to Intellisense, they're going to be SOL.
I want to play Devil's Advocate for a minute here however and turn the tables. The information being just a period away, would that not allow an easier way for a programmer to learn what code can do? I type in MessageBox. and I get three options. Granted as an aspiring programmer must take the responsibility myself, I could track down those 3 functions and learn what they do. It definitely appears to be a double-edged blade depending on the dedication and know-how of those learning how to program. I will agree with you that it is definitely a crutch and an excuse to be lazy and that's where each person must make a choice. This is of course based on my minimal experiences with programming and I will be the first to admit that there is a plethora out there left for me to learn.
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#28 runfaster  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 26 February 2010 - 03:32 PM

I learned most of the languages I have in high level IDEs, and I would just like to say that the all of those IDEs at least tell you when you are wrong. This is immeasurably helpful when learning the languages. Text documents are for the gurus, those who never misplace a ; or misspell a name. I, for one don't enjoy seeing 5 errors saying I don't have a ; and object 'namee' undefined when I compile. With the Intellisense, you are notified that you messed up before you start typing the next line, and sometimes right after that one '.'.

The Intellisense is quite helpful for someone learning C# or the like. You get a little tool tip that pops up and tells you what your options are. I feel that this is much faster than looking up an api or what have you. It also lets you learn what you can do with the language.

Most of the time I think that the Intellisense promotes learning. For the sufficiently curious programmer who types in their string variable, if they hit '.', they get a whole slew of functions and properties of the string class. You can see what parameters are taken by each function, the type of properties, and the return values, and sometimes, what the function does. For someone who is learning the language and doesn't know everything about the language it is a blessing to have.

I agree with baavigai when he says that needing the tool to learn/use the language is a bit too lazy. There is a little something called Google and it is your friend.
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#29 MentalFloss  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 27 February 2010 - 10:55 AM

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Most of the time I think that the Intellisense promotes learning. For the sufficiently curious programmer who types in their string variable, if they hit '.', they get a whole slew of functions and properties of the string class. You can see what parameters are taken by each function, the type of properties, and the return values, and sometimes, what the function does. For someone who is learning the language and doesn't know everything about the language it is a blessing to have.


You know what's even cooler than intellisense? "Go to Definition" - You can view the metadata for the object you are interested in. This will allow you to look at all the methods available (usually with comments) in one fell swoop instead of sifting through the listbox.

This post has been edited by MentalFloss: 27 February 2010 - 10:56 AM

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#30 calvinthedestroyer  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is .NET too user friendly for new programmers?

Posted 27 February 2010 - 09:30 PM

I have never used .NET before, But I think this one picture can answer your question:
Posted Image

Ok, joking aside, I would recommend starting with Basic programing. (not QBasic) just a Basic programing course to help you learn How to program. When I learned how to flow chart programs it really helped me to understand the logic of computer programs.
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