It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

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#31 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 03:43 PM

wizzy-wig. And that's final. :punk:
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#32 akozlik  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:12 PM

I feel bad for all the high school students who are in subpar development courses. The teacher for the class I took (many years ago) gave us all the freedom to approach projects in our own way. This encouraged us to try out different tools and learn which solution was best for a particular problem.

As far as Dreamweaver, nothing beats Netbeans for me. I'm a PHP developer though so I'm a little biased.
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#33 ludjer  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:44 PM

View Postakozlik, on 03 March 2010 - 12:12 AM, said:

I feel bad for all the high school students who are in subpar development courses. The teacher for the class I took (many years ago) gave us all the freedom to approach projects in our own way. This encouraged us to try out different tools and learn which solution was best for a particular problem.

As far as Dreamweaver, nothing beats Netbeans for me. I'm a PHP developer though so I'm a little biased.

i agree with you netbeans is the all in one IDE :D
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#34 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:46 PM

I've said it before in the Web Design and Development forums but I guess I'll go over it here to.

Dreamweaver, Web Expressions, and any other IDE should be banned from use for students starting to learn until at LEAST one semester of solid code is discussed in class and the students show a proficient knowledge of the code even on paper. Until they can effectively make a page, code and all, without even touching a computer, they shouldn't even touch an IDE. Why though?

An IDE is a tool for rapid development for experienced coders (or at least seasoned) to get projects done in a way that helps them achieve more results faster than they could using say notepad.

I don't believe for a second that Dreamweaver needs to be taught early because by doing that you're essentially giving students a quick cop-out of knowing code which becomes an extreme detriment and crutch whenever the company or client they work for doesn't have dreamweaver. Dreamweaver is like a crutch to these people that were raised on it, they can't code to save their lives outside of it. That's not what a tool is by a long shot.

These teachers are even worse. They have absolutely no idea what web development is much less any manual coding and Dreamweaver becomes a cop-out for them as well as an "easier way" to teach web design that gets everyone involved and able to "design aesthetically pleasing pages." This is the biggest load of farce excuse school districts come out with and normally this can be attributed to business teachers attempting to teach web design.

In my school system before I graduated the web teacher was a business teacher and I can tell you I learned far more in programming in a week than I learned from her in a semester. Why is that? Web is a technology field, not a business field. Lord help us if Business majors were in charge of the web, we'd have excel pie charts every half-page, comic sans as "an effective and pleasing font", complimentary colors plastered everywhere because "it gets people's attention", no white space "because it wastes valuable screen retail", and logos that take up most of the page. Now I'm sure most freelancers that read this are twitching remembering a bad client like this, just remember business departments spawn them. (And do note I'm a Dual Business/CIS major so I know what I'm talking about on Business dept.)

I'm in my first year of college at the time of this post and I can tell you from what I've learned on my own I've taught students that asked me more about actual web design in a matter of a few days than the teachers could in an entire year.

Don't even get me started on things such as publisher or table based designs, people who advocate such things need to have their licenses revoked post-haste.

You really want to know how bad it looks whenever a dreamweaver born-and-raised "coder" makes a site? Look at the inline css and the .style up to 100 something, the mess of tables, lack of clean code, and the order is a complete disaster 9 times out of 10.

Everyone starting web, do yourself a favor, hit http://www.w3schools.com and actually LEARN the code because anyone that matters can tell.
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#35 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:47 PM

I find it interesting that so many comments are on sub-par high school courses. I can give a lovely list of colleges with the same problem.
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#36 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 05:51 PM

Surprisingly my College is rather good about things because the teacher also teaches the Java course. Coincidence? No, not really. Programmers make better Web Teachers by far.
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#37 dawmail333  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 09:58 PM

Bah, it was compulsory for Y9 students to learn IT at our school. I learned nothing. Nothing USEFUL was taught either. I didn't do the senior web design kinda-course (covers a lot of other junk like Flash), but I know 99% of the web content that will ever teach. Truly, real programming starts AFTER highschool.

On the flip side, the net is an awesome place to teach yourself. I remember that I set up and maintained a website purely using the 'in-place text editing mode' of WinSCP to run my site. No syntax highlighting/intellisense, just liberal use of Googling and save/examine. (I did HTML/CSS/PHP this way)

Source:
Been there, doing that.
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#38 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 02 March 2010 - 10:10 PM

While the internet is an invaluable resource you need to get at least a solid course to work on otherwise it's patch-knowledge which is debatably as bad as IDE-reliance.

Find a solid line of tutorials as a primer THEN branch out to what you want to do.
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#39 designthedesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:02 AM

View Postdesignthedesign, on 01 March 2010 - 05:05 PM, said:

View Posterik.price, on 01 March 2010 - 01:57 PM, said:

I agree with bflosabre91 here. Dreamweaver can be an awesome tool, but totally neglecting teaching students HTML/CSS first really isn't beneficial.

My high school "web development" class (web development is in quotes, because it's a joke) is essentially dragging and dropping elements inside of Dreamweaver. I wouldn't have a problem if the students were at least introduced to HTML and company, and wrote at least one or two things by hand. HTML isn't even that difficult to pick up in the first place.


This is exactly how my High School web design class is. My teacher is one of the worst I've ever had and sometimes even makes me angry.

She doesn't know the second thing about HTML or CSS and will literally growl and say "Ugh, code." I've even went to the extent of trying to trying to explain to her that Dreamweaver simply creates the HTML and CSS for you. She wouldn't accept the fact and said that "in our class we don't use HTML."

Half of our year has been spent in Flash and Fireworks reading out of Studio 8 books. I've asked if I could maybe go an independent study and do things that would actually be beneficial. She said no.

Oh my, [/rant]


So now that we've all agreed that Dreamweaver should be used as an aid and not as the basis of the class... what do you suppose would be good advice for a situation like mine? I can't get anything beneficial done in class and those are hours where I could be learning and developing.

:ph34r: Side Note Ninja Double Rant: :shuriken:
Today I asked her if I could log into the online ftp client for my host to update some files. She asked me what hosting was and why I was asking if it wasn't relevant to our current project (making a ball bounce with motion tweens in flash.) I informed her what a host is. She proceeded to tell me the reason for her not knowing... "I don't have time to be on the computer."

This post has been edited by designthedesign: 03 March 2010 - 12:03 AM

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#40 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:24 AM

Drop the class and the obviously incompetent teacher and teach yourself / ask someone here to help you get on your feet.
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#41 bstonehill  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:01 AM

When I took web development I definitely felt the focus was too much on learning Dreamweaver rather than learning HTML. They showed us how to switch to code view and said "This is what the code looks like", and that was about it as far as code went. I think Dreamweaver is just too advanced for an intro course and using a simpler environment and focusing more on HTML and its conventions would be much more beneficial.

I personally abandoned Dreamweaver early on because I found I could hand code faster and the code was cleaner. Now I mostly use PSPad.
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#42 Nykc  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 11:07 AM

Funny thing is I was taught on Front Page. Circa 2000 when I took the intro course at UT. They have since switched to teaching dreamweaver. One thing I will note is my professor did emphasize the importance of editing code manually. Once I was comfortable with HTML/CSS I dropped WYSIWYG editors all together.

My son is learning web design in HS and they started out using notepad, however she fails to teach them proper techniques. She is teaching <iframes>, designing with <tables>

So the trick here is to train teachers/professors the proper methods before sending them off to mislead the next generations of web developers.

For the record - most of my knowledge was self taught through trial & error as well as Google.
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#43 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:16 PM

I still use tools such as Aptana just for the sake of speed and spellcheck/error check.

Most people learn through Google and that's pretty well the way I made it along, that as well as doing pro-bono projects for a while.
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#44 Nykc  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:20 PM

Yeah thanks to you @Lemur I am now a big fan of Aptana as well. Even stopped using blufish for it.
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#45 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: It's 2010. Should Dreamweaver Still Be Taught?

Posted 03 March 2010 - 01:46 PM

... but if you NEED the class to graduate, dropping it would be stupid. If this is the case, you'll have to suffer through it. A little pain for a lot of gain. If it's required, it'll be worth it in the end.
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