Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

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74 Replies - 2000 Views - Last Post: 19 April 2010 - 08:36 AM

#1 coden4fun  Icon User is offline

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Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 08:49 PM

Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose abortion?
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#2 Galois  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 08:55 PM

Somehow I don't think that supporting death for murderers and supporting death for human embryos are logically equivalent positions.
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#3 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 08:55 PM

No.
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#4 Mr. O  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

If you are a christian, then there is a belief that the government has the ABILITY to execute people, not the RESPONSIBILITY. Also as a christian, abortion is absolutely an abomination. It says in Psalms, that God knew us from the time we were conceived. Logically it does not make any sense but there is a place for logic and a place for faith.
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#5 no2pencil  Icon User is online

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:02 PM

View Postcoden4fun, on 15 April 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose abortion?

Sorry, but this is really a stupid question.

Death Penalty : Killing inmates that don't belong in society. Rapists, murders, combination of the two
Abortion : Killing unborn children.

Yeah, I can see how someone could go for one & not the other.
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#6 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:10 PM

Mr O, are you the emperor of all Christians? Try less blanket statements. kthxbai
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#7 Mr. O  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:15 PM

Not everyone agrees. However, there is a general agreement among Lutherans that what I said was basically correct. Everyone else? That is another question. Am I the emperor of all Christians? No. Do all Christians agree on this topic? Well are all Christians thinking the same? Again no. I am speaking from my own experience. It would not surprise me if there were people out there who don't. That is just fine.
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#8 hawkysu  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 09:22 PM

I had the song "Sexy Back" playing in my head when I clicked the clicky.

Now it's louder.

Plaz halp!
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#9 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:13 PM

I think there is a logical and rational discussion to be had concerning the equivalence of the death penalty and abortion. I'm not sure that a faith-based view falls into either of those categories. If you want to bring it down to a question of morality and hold it up with some random religious view point then I would venture to say that is immoral. Morality based on higher enforcement in itself is immoral. Behave because you owe it to each other, not because you think you're being judged. Take reference "Pale Blue Dot" by Carl Sagan. He will rock your socks straight off:

Posted Image

Quote

Consider again that dot. That's here, that's home, that's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there – on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds.
Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.
The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.
It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.



Finally addressing the OP:

I think in several ways abortion differs from the death penalty. First of all, how are we going to define what murder and life are? Second of all, does the child have a choice in the matter? Does the criminal have a choice in the matter? What social problems do abortion and the death penalty address? I am going to say you can support one without the other and still be safe.

This post has been edited by Dark_Nexus: 15 April 2010 - 11:20 PM

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#10 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:17 PM

The same can be said in reverse though I'm not one to get into these things if I can help it.

I will say however I'm no fan of abortion and believe Mother Theresa said it best when she said:
"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts. By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. "

Take as you will, merely my stance on the issue.

I'm no fan of the entire "we" whenever someone talks about Christianity. Any mass-encapsulating pronoun should be banned from use when referring to such a large group, the use of these words does nothing more than to highlight an underlying incompetence and weak support for ones own arguments.

Regardless, carry on. Back to the Web Forums with me.
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#11 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 15 April 2010 - 11:22 PM

Quote

Regardless, carry on. Back to the Web Forums with me.


You stay the hell out of controversial lounge topics Bringer of Legitimate Opinions!!!
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#12 baavgai  Icon User is offline

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 16 April 2010 - 04:33 AM

View Postcoden4fun, on 15 April 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose abortion?


It's not that simple, of course, but yes. :P

Both have the same fundamental goal and method: the taking of an individual life for the betterment of the society as a whole.

Because, you know, the product of an unwanted pregnancy makes for such a happy, well adjusted, family unit. Or, maybe, the future victims of capital punishment?

That ignores the fundamental question of when life begins. For the sake of argument, at least with the loudest arguers, you have to just stipulate that the mommy parasite is actually a person and go from there.
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#13 Bort  Icon User is online

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 16 April 2010 - 04:55 AM

View PostMr. O, on 15 April 2010 - 08:02 PM, said:

If you are a christian, then there is a belief that the government has the ABILITY to execute people, not the RESPONSIBILITY. Also as a christian, abortion is absolutely an abomination. It says in Psalms, that God knew us from the time we were conceived. Logically it does not make any sense but there is a place for logic and a place for faith.


Good God...4th post in and already someone has brought religion into this...

As you say in your post Mr O, there is a place for faith, and spouting religious garbage on a programming forum is NOT it. Well, unless the topic is about religion anyways. Frankly, I couldn't care less what it says in Psalms, the topic had nothing to do with religion. Saying 'I'm opposed to abortion because it is against my religion' is fine. Saying 'God says...the bible says...' blah blah blah, just please, no. Let us have a topic in here that doesn't become some religious debate.

I'm not saying your views are wrong, or that you shouldn't be a christian, just I for one really don't care or want to know.

OT: No, I don't think this is inconsistant. Personally, I disagree with abortion because that foetus could turn out to be the person that solves world hunger or cures cancer or something, whereas the death penalty is a guaranteed way of making sure assholes who should never be set loose in public don't get to commit more crimes. Plus, it's a damn sight friendly on the economy than housing, clothing, feeding these people for 20+ years.
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#14 NeoTifa  Icon User is online

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 16 April 2010 - 05:39 AM

Well, that's really what determines this controversy after all. The issue for abortion is pretty much Christians vs. Athiests for the most part. It's all about perspective. People with faith believe that it is wrong to kill, and yes that Psalms passage Mr. O said, but yet with the death penalty doesn't Jesus or God or someone preach forgiveness or something (which is inconsistant with the God in 9/10 of the Bible... just saying)? Athiests tend to not be as spiritual with the idea of a human life so they have a different definition of what a fetus is compared to a Christian. So of course religion plays out as 99% of the argument.
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#15 Bort  Icon User is online

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Re: Is it logically inconsistent to support the death penalty but oppose a

Posted 16 April 2010 - 06:03 AM

I disagree there Neo. It isn't JUST about religion. Surely people are allowed to have their own opinions on the subject. After all, if this supposedly wondrous all powerful being in the sky did create us all, then expected us all to believe the same thing and act the same way, why did he/she/it include the idea of free thinking and personal choice?

This is one of the big reasons I disagree with religions saying 'this is right and that is a SIIIIIIIN!!!' (complete with arched eyebrows and pointed fingers). Surely that in itself is taking away one of those features that god gave us?

If some evil bastard comes along and rapes some 13 year old girl, getting her pregnant, how is it a sin for her to have an abortion? The foetus growing inside her was not put there by her choice. So, some git removes the choice for her about getting pregnant then this apparently merciful and compassionate god comes along and removes her choice to get rid of the thing growing inside her. What about if she is still tiny, having not really started growing yet? Would giving birth not be damned dangerous to her too? Why should the church decide that she should risk her life because of that rapist?

Hmmm, nah. I think I'll stick with atheism thanks. At least it gives me the freedom to think for myself.
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