[Cyrusthebeast]

I've started and stopped C++ around 3 or 4 times (although this most recent time I've gotten the most done because I'm almost done with high school and I really want to do something like this in college) because I've just felt that I couldn't do it. There are concepts that take me hours of just re-reading and looking up different ways that people put them to understand.

In addition to this, I'm creating a simple game and learning things as I go, but even tiny things that should be so obvious are tripping me up (and I will put this multiple times because it's true) for literally hours.

Example: http://www.dreaminco...t-being-called/

Look at JackOfAllTrade's post. I literally looked at that code and looked up solutions for my problem for hours when all I had to do was remove the int in front of the function.

Another thing I did which literally took me hours to solve (although I did this one on my own) was using = instead of == in an if statement.

I've asked multiple questions with the simplest solutions and I'm fairly sure that eventually most people are just going to say that I'm not even trying at all and refuse help, regardless of how far away from the truth that is.

So I guess after all that, my final question to beginners/intermediates would be: how much did you struggle over the small things and are you still doing it? And to the 'pros' (I guess people that either make or can easily make money through programming), did you struggle on the small things, or do you? And if you did but don't anymore, what did you do to get over that?

What thing that really brought this question up for me to ask someone (I originally asked someone who I consider a pro in PM and he said it was a good question and to ask here) because of JackOfAllTrades's signature:

Quote

"...most people can’t learn to program: between 30% and 60% of every university computer science department’s intake fail the first programming course."
-- Saeed Dehnadi and Richard Bornat, The Camel Has Two Humps

The small problems that took forever to fix basically planted seeds of doubt in my mind and reading that quote basically fertilized and watered them.

This post has been edited by Cyrusthebeast: 07 June 2010 - 08:45 PM

[no2pencil]

Cyrusthebeast, on 07 June 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

Another thing I did which literally took me hours to solve (although I did this one on my own) was using = instead of == in an if statement.

You just have to remember what these represent, & how to properly use them. Don't just try to memorize the code &/or methods.

This checks to see if i can be set to the value of zero, which it can, so it returns true.

if(i=0)

This checks to see if i is equal to the value of zero, & returns true or false based on the comparison.

if(i==0)

You'll get it

[Cyrusthebeast]

no2pencil, on 07 June 2010 - 07:47 PM, said:

Cyrusthebeast, on 07 June 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

Another thing I did which literally took me hours to solve (although I did this one on my own) was using = instead of == in an if statement.

You just have to remember what these represent, & how to properly use them. Don't just try to memorize the code &/or methods.

This checks to see if i can be set to the value of zero, which it can, so it returns true.

if(i=0)

This checks to see if i is equal to the value of zero, & returns true or false based on the comparison.

if(i==0)

You'll get it

Well that's one thing. I knew the difference between both of those the entire time, but it was just such a small thing I never noticed that it could be the problem :\

[no2pencil]

Cyrusthebeast, on 07 June 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

I've asked multiple questions with the simplest solutions and I'm fairly sure that eventually most people are just going to say that I'm not even trying at all and refuse help, regardless of how far away from the truth that is.

We only suggest that someone isn't trying when they obviously are not trying. As long as you are asking a question, posting code, & posting errors, we won't accuse you of anything. The thing that irks everyone the most is when someone posts their assignment, or obviously wants no help, just wants the code. The regulars of Dream In Code know, understand, & can easily identify the difference between someone asking for help, & someone asking to get out of work.

Cyrusthebeast, on 07 June 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

So I guess after all that, my final question to beginners/intermediates would be: how much did you struggle over the small things and are you still doing it? And to the 'pros' (I guess people that either make or can easily make money through programming), did you struggle on the small things, or do you? And if you did but don't anymore, what did you do to get over that?

I'm no pro. Let me just get that out there.

I remember getting my 1st C/C++ book, & I remember seeing the compiled binaries from the examples. I remember reading the book (waiting on the car mechanic, on my lunch break... & so on). But what I don't remember is ever 'getting it'. I had no clue what I was doing for a long long time. Next thing I knew I had friends asking me for help. I realized I was posting solutions on the internet, not because I knew the answer, but because I had been down that road before. I had made those same mistakes. You'll get it. If you are determined enough you'll get it. The sad thing is, you may not see yourself getting it until it's been gotten. At least that was my experience.

[Oler1s]

Quote

Look at JackOfAllTrade's post. I literally looked at that code and looked up solutions for my problem for hours when all I had to do was remove the int in front of the function.

In that particular thread, I only commented on your code formatting. But, when I was glancing over the code, I didn't flag it as a problem in my head. My mind just read it as: function declaration, and then I moved on. Turns out it was the problem. So you ask yourself, what was I doing, what should I have done differently?

- Ask yourself, did you notice the int? Attention to detail is vital in programming. Have you ever seen a demonstration of how a human mind tends to approximate in reading? For example if there is a sentence with the the (as in repeated thes), your mind may glance over it. (If someone can find a link to an example of that trick...) Did your mind just filter it out? Did you not mentally acknowledge the int?
- What about isolating the problem? You had all these lines of code, but you couldn't even point to an approximate 5 lines of code that were problematic. You had to post all three files.

Sometimes I miss things on a glance over. I catch them when I isolate the problem. What did you do to isolate the problem? What went wrong? What could you have done differently to isolate the problem? I improved when I started asking myself these questions.

Quote

Another thing I did which literally took me hours to solve (although I did this one on my own) was using = instead of == in an if statement.

Same exact questions as above.

Quote

I've asked multiple questions with the simplest solutions and I'm fairly sure that eventually most people are just going to say that I'm not even trying at all and refuse help, regardless of how far away from the truth that is.

All you have to do is post your efforts. But what you really need to do is stop beating yourself up over the mistake, and instead examine your efforts. Study your efforts. What was your thought process? Examine each thought, each idea you came up with. Was it reasonable? Was it logical? Was it a good guess? Why come up with idea?

You need to test and probe each thought you make. Don't fret over the mistakes. Study yourself. What do you do? What ideas do you come up with? Why?

Quote

did you struggle on the small things, or do you? And if you did but don't anymore, what did you do to get over that?

I used to struggle on small things, yes. Actually, it wasn't things like = and ==. I can't recall the last time I made that mistake (I'm not saying I don't do this ever, but I always notice details). The problem was that I had poor problem solving. I approached programming too much as an effort in knowledge, rather than an effort in problem solving.

I hated compiler errors. And compiler warnings. I dreaded them. Not surprisingly, you don't exactly have a book that says: for this error, do x, y, and z, and your problem goes away. I really, really struggled with debugging.

The answer is to examine your problem solving efforts. Not fret about what you know or don't know. If you don't know something, that's just another problem to solve (and you should be prepared for this, acquiring that knowledge may be counted in years).

Quote

The small problems that took forever to fix basically planted seeds of doubt in my mind and reading that quote basically fertilized and watered them.

Ask yourself this question:

Do you like solving problems?

That's the fundamental question that needs to be answered.

[Raynes]

For quite literally the first year or so (albeit, I wasn't very serious, and I wasn't programming much), everything was unbelievably frustrating and I stumbled, tripped, and fell all over the place. Everything eventually *clicks*, and once it *clicks* it's pretty much smooth sailing.

[calvinthedestroyer]

Many times I will read a programing book and just adsorb the information. I won't try to understand it at first. When you get to an example, type it out and see if it works for you, then go back and try to understand the information that you read.

Many times, a given example won't work even though it should. You have to trouble shoot the example and this helps you to learn about it.

[tlhIn`toq]

This will show my age but... My introduction to computer programming was when my Science teacher bought the first generation TRS-80 computer with cassette tape drive and a book of programs written in BASIC. I fell in love. I would come to school 2 hours early in order to type the programs out of the book and save them to tape. It wasn't until the program ran that I could see what it did. Then I could start to translate it's actions into understanding of BASIC. So that was my first self-teaching experience. It required one to pay a lot of attention and to proofread. = versus == type mistakes, as you mentioned.

Personally I found C++ itself to just be amazingly frustrating. I just kept fighting it. Kept saying "Why would they design it to do *this*?", "Why would it work *this* way?" I hated the idea of header files separate from code files and so on. After a year of solid effort I woke up one day with a new attitude of "either except it, or quit". There was no point fighting it because I would not change it.

Later I switched out of C++ to C# and am much happier. But my experiences from BASIC, through Assembly Language, to C++ then C# all helped me to get where I am now.

[Cyrusthebeast]

no2pencil, on 07 June 2010 - 07:53 PM, said:

Cyrusthebeast, on 07 June 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

I've asked multiple questions with the simplest solutions and I'm fairly sure that eventually most people are just going to say that I'm not even trying at all and refuse help, regardless of how far away from the truth that is.

We only suggest that someone isn't trying when they obviously are not trying. As long as you are asking a question, posting code, & posting errors, we won't accuse you of anything. The thing that irks everyone the most is when someone posts their assignment, or obviously wants no help, just wants the code. The regulars of Dream In Code know, understand, & can easily identify the difference between someone asking for help, & someone asking to get out of work.

I won't be doing that! That's actually one reason I want to start C++ NOW, because I'll be graduating in November which == College!

Quote

Cyrusthebeast, on 07 June 2010 - 09:45 PM, said:

So I guess after all that, my final question to beginners/intermediates would be: how much did you struggle over the small things and are you still doing it? And to the 'pros' (I guess people that either make or can easily make money through programming), did you struggle on the small things, or do you? And if you did but don't anymore, what did you do to get over that?

I'm no pro. Let me just get that out there.

I remember getting my 1st C/C++ book, & I remember seeing the compiled binaries from the examples. I remember reading the book (waiting on the car mechanic, on my lunch break... & so on). But what I don't remember is ever 'getting it'. I had no clue what I was doing for a long long time. Next thing I knew I had friends asking me for help. I realized I was posting solutions on the internet, not because I knew the answer, but because I had been down that road before. I had made those same mistakes. You'll get it. If you are determined enough you'll get it. The sad thing is, you may not see yourself getting it until it's been gotten. At least that was my experience.

I can relate to your experience :] Just in a different way. When I took up boxing I always wondered how people could dodge punches from people in fractions of seconds and I kept wondering it while I kept sparring/working out etc, and I still wondered that when one day I watched a high speed camera of myself and I realized that I was doing it to! From what you're saying, I think that's what happened, same thing different story

Oler1s, on 07 June 2010 - 08:15 PM, said:

Quote

Look at JackOfAllTrade's post. I literally looked at that code and looked up solutions for my problem for hours when all I had to do was remove the int in front of the function.

In that particular thread, I only commented on your code formatting. But, when I was glancing over the code, I didn't flag it as a problem in my head. My mind just read it as: function declaration, and then I moved on. Turns out it was the problem. So you ask yourself, what was I doing, what should I have done differently?

- Ask yourself, did you notice the int? Attention to detail is vital in programming. Have you ever seen a demonstration of how a human mind tends to approximate in reading? For example if there is a sentence with the the (as in repeated thes), your mind may glance over it. (If someone can find a link to an example of that trick...) Did your mind just filter it out? Did you not mentally acknowledge the int?
- What about isolating the problem? You had all these lines of code, but you couldn't even point to an approximate 5 lines of code that were problematic. You had to post all three files.

Sometimes I miss things on a glance over. I catch them when I isolate the problem. What did you do to isolate the problem? What went wrong? What could you have done differently to isolate the problem? I improved when I started asking myself these questions.

Quote

Another thing I did which literally took me hours to solve (although I did this one on my own) was using = instead of == in an if statement.

Same exact questions as above.

Well I could have isolated it, I actually did (you can see test one and test two to see how far I get) but I just couldn't fathom the problem because it was so small.

Quote

Quote

I've asked multiple questions with the simplest solutions and I'm fairly sure that eventually most people are just going to say that I'm not even trying at all and refuse help, regardless of how far away from the truth that is.

All you have to do is post your efforts. But what you really need to do is stop beating yourself up over the mistake, and instead examine your efforts. Study your efforts. What was your thought process? Examine each thought, each idea you came up with. Was it reasonable? Was it logical? Was it a good guess? Why come up with idea?

You need to test and probe each thought you make. Don't fret over the mistakes. Study yourself. What do you do? What ideas do you come up with? Why?

I was actually going to create a little guidebook for myself (sounds weird, I know) of all the things that have gone wrong with the code and what I did to fix it. I was thinking of all of these random things to fix the code and most of them didn't even really make sense; desperation or frustration would be a better word.

Quote

Quote

did you struggle on the small things, or do you? And if you did but don't anymore, what did you do to get over that?

I used to struggle on small things, yes. Actually, it wasn't things like = and ==. I can't recall the last time I made that mistake (I'm not saying I don't do this ever, but I always notice details). The problem was that I had poor problem solving. I approached programming too much as an effort in knowledge, rather than an effort in problem solving.

The answer is to examine your problem solving efforts. Not fret about what you know or don't know. If you don't know something, that's just another problem to solve (and you should be prepared for this, acquiring that knowledge may be counted in years).

My problem solving skills are.. mediocre But I usually enjoy problems and I s'pose the more I solve them the better I get XD

Quote

Quote

The small problems that took forever to fix basically planted seeds of doubt in my mind and reading that quote basically fertilized and watered them.

Ask yourself this question:

Do you like solving problems?

That's the fundamental question that needs to be answered.

Yes!

Raynes, on 07 June 2010 - 10:16 PM, said:

For quite literally the first year or so (albeit, I wasn't very serious, and I wasn't programming much), everything was unbelievably frustrating and I stumbled, tripped, and fell all over the place. Everything eventually *clicks*, and once it *clicks* it's pretty much smooth sailing.

I very much hope that point comes soon!

calvinthedestroyer, on 08 June 2010 - 07:41 AM, said:

Many times I will read a programing book and just adsorb the information. I won't try to understand it at first. When you get to an example, type it out and see if it works for you, then go back and try to understand the information that you read.

Many times, a given example won't work even though it should. You have to trouble shoot the example and this helps you to learn about it.

Well I actually bought a book around the first time I tried to learn it but I got so frustrated with my inability to do anything other than basics (even halfway through it) that I stashed it somewhere and I have no idea where it is :[

tlhIn, on 08 June 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

This will show my age but... My introduction to computer programming was when my Science teacher bought the first generation TRS-80 computer with cassette tape drive

Top of the line! haha

Quote

and a book of programs written in BASIC. I fell in love. I would come to school 2 hours early in order to type the programs out of the book and save them to tape. It wasn't until the program ran that I could see what it did. Then I could start to translate it's actions into understanding of BASIC. So that was my first self-teaching experience. It required one to pay a lot of attention and to proofread. = versus == type mistakes, as you mentioned.

Personally I found C++ itself to just be amazingly frustrating. I just kept fighting it. Kept saying "Why would they design it to do *this*?", "Why would it work *this* way?" I hated the idea of header files separate from code files and so on. After a year of solid effort I woke up one day with a new attitude of "either except it, or quit". There was no point fighting it because I would not change it.

Later I switched out of C++ to C# and am much happier. But my experiences from BASIC, through Assembly Language, to C++ then C# all helped me to get where I am now.

One thing I don't get is how you guys all say it takes years of experience (or a very long time) to just simply notice the simple things.

Oler1s said that it could take years, tlhIn'toq (that is very strange ) said that he came to school two hours early (I'd imagine for an entire school year, maybe more) and Raynes just stated that it took him about a year (even though he wasn't trying that much). When people go to college for this, they definitely have to have money as an issue! A one-semester class won't be enough time to pick up on these things, does everyone that learns a language do side projects to learn/stay sharp or something? Because there has to be a point between getting out of school without enough experience to go to work where I don't want to be but I'd think most people will be in. What happens then?

This post has been edited by Cyrusthebeast: 08 June 2010 - 09:03 AM

[Oler1s]

Quote

Yes! (In response to enjoying solving problems)

As long as you genuinely enjoy programming problems, you're good to go. Genuinely enjoying solving problems means that you won't ask "what's the answer". You'll solve it yourself, because that's what you enjoy doing. You'll tackle each obstacle, because you enjoy the act of overcoming them. And tackling obstacles is exactly what you need to do to improve.

Quote

A one-semester class won't be enough time to pick up on these things

College isn't useful for learning computer programming. It's useful for computer science.

Quote

does everyone that learns a language do side projects to learn/stay sharp or something?

That's a bit like asking, do long distance runners run here and there to stay fit or something?

You're always tackling projects. Good projects are ones that are beyond your knowledge levels, and challenge your problem solving skills.

Quote

Because there has to be a point between getting out of school without enough experience to go to work where I don't want to be but I'd think most people will be in.

That's because people don't rely on school. You need to work on your own. It's a bit like learning music theory, and never playing anything yourself. Sure, you've got a degree, but you've got nothing to actually demo.

Quote

What happens then?

If you don't have anything to show, you're FUBARed. You're not expected to be some super experienced programmer out of college. You are expected to have projects you tackled. Don't rely on college to teach you to program. College teaches you theory. And continuing theory puts you on an academic path. What you need to learn to program professionally is ability to actual code, not just work on theories. You need to know technologies, concepts, and details that are not relevant in the purely abstract.

A good question to start asking yourself is what kind of programs you want to create after leaving college. You can't be a master of everything. You'll cover common fundamentals, and then specialize your knowledge.

[modi123_1]

At the risk of sounding like a dick, why exactly are you pursuing programming?

Through *literally* all your posts you indicated you attempted basic programming, failed a quarter of they way through the first chapter, and quit.

You also admit your problem solving skills are lacking.

Finally you consistently display a tendency to "game the system" into learning how to program. There seems to be this overly analysis of why you can't small things, personal journals for every error you make, and are looking for some quantification that says 'when you cross this line you will understand it all'.

All of that adds up to me asking, again, *why* do you want to program? Is this something you really want to do, or are you risking grinding out time pushing a square peg through a round hole?

Heck, maybe you have some great altruistic goals, but maybe there is another passion in life you have an aptitude for and programming could be a nice hobby. *shrug* Where do you see yourself five years post a college comp sci degree, and doing what?

<redacted English/grammar fascist commentary>

This post has been edited by modi123_1: 08 June 2010 - 09:44 AM

[Choscura]

Cyrus, you're not alone.

I've kind of given up on asking for help unless I'm really desperate. The information is out there, it usually just takes an example or two for me to get it (and even further than the example) now. according to what I've read and seen, most of your time isn't spent doing 'pure' coding anyway- it's spent mucking about with whatever environment you're working in- windows API programming, assembling linux setup files, etc.

[Cyrusthebeast]

Oler1s, on 08 June 2010 - 08:41 AM, said:

Quote

Yes! (In response to enjoying solving problems)

As long as you genuinely enjoy programming problems, you're good to go. Genuinely enjoying solving problems means that you won't ask "what's the answer". You'll solve it yourself, because that's what you enjoy doing. You'll tackle each obstacle, because you enjoy the act of overcoming them. And tackling obstacles is exactly what you need to do to improve.

Quote

A one-semester class won't be enough time to pick up on these things

College isn't useful for learning computer programming. It's useful for computer science.

Quote

does everyone that learns a language do side projects to learn/stay sharp or something?

That's a bit like asking, do long distance runners run here and there to stay fit or something?

You're always tackling projects. Good projects are ones that are beyond your knowledge levels, and challenge your problem solving skills.

Quote

Because there has to be a point between getting out of school without enough experience to go to work where I don't want to be but I'd think most people will be in.

That's because people don't rely on school. You need to work on your own. It's a bit like learning music theory, and never playing anything yourself. Sure, you've got a degree, but you've got nothing to actually demo.

Quote

What happens then?

If you don't have anything to show, you're FUBARed. You're not expected to be some super experienced programmer out of college. You are expected to have projects you tackled. Don't rely on college to teach you to program. College teaches you theory. And continuing theory puts you on an academic path. What you need to learn to program professionally is ability to actual code, not just work on theories. You need to know technologies, concepts, and details that are not relevant in the purely abstract.

A good question to start asking yourself is what kind of programs you want to create after leaving college. You can't be a master of everything. You'll cover common fundamentals, and then specialize your knowledge.

That's what I'm doing, I believe. After I finish this game with very basics, I'll make it more advanced, learn more ways to do things better/faster and implement new features. Eventually I hope to turn it into a 2D Game that'll be like a rip-off of Pokemon :]

And I really want to create games or programs to fill simple niches (the latter might not be as profitably, I'm afraid)

modi123_1, on 08 June 2010 - 08:43 AM, said:

At the risk of sounding like a dick, why exactly are you pursuing programming?

Through *literally* all your posts you indicated you attempted basic programming, failed a quarter of they way through the first chapter, and quit.

You also admit your problem solving skills are lacking.

Finally you consistently display a tendency to "game the system" into learning how to program. There seems to be this overly analysis of why you can't small things, personal journals for every error you make, and are looking for some quantification that says 'when you cross this line you will understand it all'.

All of that adds up to me asking, again, *why* do you want to program? Is this something you really want to do, or are you risking grinding out time pushing a square peg through a round hole?

Heck, maybe you have some great altruistic goals, but maybe there is another passion in life you have an aptitude for and programming could be a nice hobby. *shrug* Where do you see yourself five years post a college comp sci degree, and doing what?

<redacted English/grammar fascist commentary>

Also at the risk of sounding like a dick, if you want to say that I LITERALLY did something, please be more accurate:

Quote

Well I actually bought a book around the first time I tried to learn it but I got so frustrated with my inability to do anything other than basics (even halfway through it)

And my problem solving skills ARE lacking, everyone's skills are lacking before they learn more about it. Your reading skills lacked before you did it more, your handwriting skills lacked before you wrote more often, your WALKING skills lacked before you walked more, and now you can do all of those things wonderfully.

The little 'journal' would be like a checklist so I can know I checked most of the common things that have tripped me up before. Think of it like creating a program is like going to the store and the list is making sure I get everything.

And I didn't actually think that once I crossed a certain point I would understand it all. I understand completely that that is figuratively stated.

I want to program because of multiple reasons:

• I like to solve problems (even if I can't always solve them right away)
  
• I've always liked to put things together and I feel like programming is like that, putting code together to create something awesome
  
• I one day hope to make a living off of doing something that I love to do, and so far from this game I'm making, it's pretty fun (with the exception of one or two things, but nothing will be fun 100% of the time)

Choscura, on 08 June 2010 - 09:43 AM, said:

Cyrus, you're not alone.

I've kind of given up on asking for help unless I'm really desperate. The information is out there, it usually just takes an example or two for me to get it (and even further than the example) now. according to what I've read and seen, most of your time isn't spent doing 'pure' coding anyway- it's spent mucking about with whatever environment you're working in- windows API programming, assembling linux setup files, etc.

That makes me feel good! Other people struggling (although it sounds like a douche thing to say) means that there's hope

[NeoTifa]

Don't give up. I just made a stupid mistake like that not even 45 seconds ago. Missing a simple -1 crashed my whole (little) program That's what IDE's are for. You learn from your mistakes. A good programmer makes mistakes, a great programmer finds them. ^__^

[Cyrusthebeast]

NeoTifa, on 08 June 2010 - 11:10 AM, said:

Don't give up. I just made a stupid mistake like that not even 45 seconds ago. Missing a simple -1 crashed my whole (little) program That's what IDE's are for. You learn from your mistakes. A good programmer makes mistakes, a great programmer finds them. ^__^

I've never seen it put so nicely before XD