Get it working versus get it working the right way

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#31 Guest_The Other man*


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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:10 AM

nice forum
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#32 KidD1988  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:27 AM

well one more post i guess :P

i feel a little confused, i am sorry for my bad english and the cellphone syntax style of writing, but never the less. You guys did! get it

For all of you guys who did not get it, well all i have to say is wtf is this how you help others by writing nasty things about them, by making fun of them, if you(and you know who you are) Are not just a little ashamed, well your opinions are here by noted as invalid (i just dont care about you anymore)

But for all of you guys who are not in denial, congratZ you make software(and i guess have jobs) and do not try the impossible, wich is trying to develop people replacement code cuz you know! if that were possible you wouldnt have a job! Some computer would.

so wrong vs. right will always be false and output errors. Do you not get this? Nothing is fool proof, if you use a calculator and put in the wrong numbers the return value will be false(4+4=8 but what u meant to type was 4+5). The calculator did the job as it were surpose to, it did not crash because it tried to calculate what you meant, but calculated what u gave it, so NOT wrong vs. right, but rather more in the lines of being able to calculate user input no matter what. If you follow this path your software might produce somthing like #df%&/(#", but its okay! the user will see it! and fix it! And if not, maybe the user shouldent be using it, maby you made some crappy software that ignores wrong input, throws it away because it "felt" it was not true.

Do not worry about what is false, but worry about how everything is true

This post has been edited by KidD1988: 12 June 2010 - 08:39 AM

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#33 Frinavale  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:00 AM

Kid, you are an enigma that I could never solve. (You don't make any sense to me, I can't tell if you're joking or not)

View PostKidD1988, on 12 June 2010 - 04:27 AM, said:

For all of you guys who did not get it, well all i have to say is wtf is this how you help others by writing nasty things about them, by making fun of them, if you(and you know who you are) Are not just a little ashamed, well your opinions are here by noted as invalid (i just dont care about you anymore)

In this entire thread I did not see anyone making fun of anyone else.
We were acknowledging a problem that we see online..that also takes place in the real world.
Coding to the lowest standard is not acceptable in my eyes (and many other's share the same opinion) and yet there are some people that are more than happy to implement at this standard (no I'm not talking about MS here).


View PostKidD1988, on 12 June 2010 - 04:27 AM, said:

so wrong vs. right will always be false and output errors. Do you not get this? Nothing is fool proof, if you use a calculator and put in the wrong numbers the return value will be false(4+4=8 but what u meant to type was 4+5). The calculator did the job as it were surpose to, it did not crash because it tried to calculate what you meant, but calculated what u gave it, so NOT wrong vs. right, but rather more in the lines of being able to calculate user input no matter what. If you follow this path your software might produce somthing like #df%&/(#", but its okay! the user will see it! and fix it! And if not, maybe the user shouldent be using it, maby you made some crappy software that ignores wrong input, throws it away because it "felt" it was not true.


If you input the wrong information into a calculate it doesn't explode, or puke on you...because calculators were developed to only accept acceptable information from the user.

Applications, on the other hand, will explode/puke out Null Reference exceptions or Cast Mismatch exceptions etc if you do not handle these cases appropriately.

What we have been noticing is that, even though we have mentioned that this will happen, people are ignoring this fact...pushing aside our observations...in favor of developing "bad software".

This type of mentality exists.

You say "Your code will break under this very common condition. It's easy to fix. Just do xxx"
And the person you are helping says "Oh that doesn't matter, it's working under happy day scenarios."

Like I said before, I feel dirty when ever I deal with this type of thing (whether it be online or in the real world).

-Frinny

This post has been edited by Frinavale: 12 June 2010 - 09:04 AM

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#34 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 09:00 AM

There is an argument against premature optimization and you're not making it KidD1988. Yes, one has to get it to work, but getting it to work just for the sake of getting it to work, will not work. That would be akin to an infinite game of whack a mole.
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#35 KidD1988  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 10:02 AM

Quote

if you know something can happen if the user enters ABC instead of DEF why not take the time to account for that beforehand?


why would you develop a software that would allow or even could accept invalid input?

the anwser i came up with after failing to get my point through, is that PsychoCoder is talking about web development, where you as the programmer have no controle over what is throws your way, forcing you the programmer to validate inspect and validate againe just to be sure that the scripting you made has not been broken. If so then i agree.
As a web devloper it is yous job to limit the user input because you have no say in what gets returned by the browser. This problem does not occur with software development the ui was developed by you
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#36 PsychoCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 10:07 AM

Actually I was referring to all development. Please you have done nothing to defend your argument, or even make your argument even semi-coherent. I notice the 1988 in your name, is that the year you were born, if so then I've been doing this longer than you've been alive (God that makes me feel old lol).

Along with Frinny I'm not even sure if you're being serious, or if this is some kind of (sick) joke on your part. You said earlier about us not understanding timelines, deadlines & business requirements. Well guess what, yes I do, and I've been working with them for damn near as long as you've been alive, and there's absolutely no reason to be a happy path programmer, which just about any damn monkey can do. Believe it or not I do know what I'm doing, and of what I speak.

Until you've got something at least semi-coherent to say I'm done replying to you
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#37 SixOfEleven  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 11:03 AM

From the beginning, I was always taught to do it right the first time. OK, so, I started this a long time ago when there wasn't really the great exception handling that there is today. When you were expecting an integer and anything else was inputted things went horribly wrong and there was no recovery by catching the exception. Even today, I rarely rely on exception handling. I only do it when something critical happens that can't be recovered from. Things that would force my application to exit so that I can have it exit nicely and explain why it happened with a good error message.

.NET programmers have no reason for their programs to crash when the user inputs a string instead of a number. You don't even need to use exception handling for it. Each of the numeric classes have the TryParse method. Learn to use them, they will make your life much easier.

Take the time and code it right from the beginning has always been my philosiphy. Even for small, personal projects, I always check to see if input is in the right format and with in expected values.
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#38 KidD1988  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 11:05 AM

Quote

You said earlier about us not understanding timelines, deadlines & business requirements.


No to the above, why are you making stuff up?, so what if im 22 all i am hearing from you is limiting user input and and if its even worth the hassel to do so?
Well not when you as the programmer made the interface! why would u make a button that makes function A, throw its data into function B.

funcrion a()
{
do something....
return array
}

function b(string)
{
b takes a string not an array. ERROR!
this will never happen it was not programmed to do so
}

the only concern i as a programmer has is that this do not happen and the way i know this is not making buttons for it ,ofc i make sure that the files the user reads in are correct or else the program will fail that is not what i am debating.
But if everything went according to plan and it failed i will throw an exeption, log it so i can find the problem and fix it, that is not overhead, so point being : it is much more important to make code readable than it is to spend time trying to figure out what the user might do to it, because they can only do what is allowed by the user interface and i did not intrept the issue as being a ui related topic.

PsychoCoder i acknowledge that you are older and have been in the industry longer than me, which means that you properly know better, but the problem that you are adress is a problem that has never come over me. so please surpply me / all of the people like me with the common problem you are adressing in code so i can fully understand your claim
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#39 Guest_Hassan*


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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 02:27 PM

I totally agree with him , excellence can only be achieved by doing things in a right way !
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#40 Mastermind_13  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 12 June 2010 - 05:10 PM

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so what if im 22


@ kidD1988 Ok you're 22, & you're a beginner. That means You need to respect PsychoCoder & understand that he has WAY more experience than you! I'm 21, I've been doing this close to 5 yrs now, and everyday I learn something new!

About the topic! I believe that all programmers should strive for the best possible work they can do, not just getting it working.
The way I do this is by 1) Never quitting on a job. I see it from start to finish 2) Make sure my code is excatly what my client needs. 3) Testing it constantly & making patches wherever necessary!

I believe that in this field you need a strong work ethic! Wait, no, You definitely need a strong work ethic! Because this is technology we are always changing always evolving! If you don't try your best, someone else is & they will get the contracts/jobs!
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#41 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 13 June 2010 - 12:50 PM

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View PostMastermind_13, on 12 June 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Quote

so what if im 22


@ kidD1988 Ok you're 22, & you're a beginner. That means You need to respect PsychoCoder & understand that he has WAY more experience than you! I'm 21, I've been doing this close to 5 yrs now, and everyday I learn something new!


I'll respectfully disagree. Respect isn't something automatically granted after a comparison of calendars. While Psychocoder may indeed be possessed of superior qualities as a software dev, demanding respect for him due solely on a comparison of his time in service versus others of less time is equally incorrect. Believe me, at my last contract I was "blessed" to make the acquaintance of another dev who had around the same amount of time in the field as I did and, without throwing bouquets my own way, he had perhaps half the actual skill of coding an app. That was the private opinion of myself (when I was assigned to fix code he had just finished writing) as well as the opinion of the CTO (who wanted to pull him entirely off the project in question in favor of myself or another coder). Age/experience is not the sole determiner of whether someone should "respect" someone else...although it's doesn't hurt to respect everyone until they give you a reason not to.

Quote

About the topic! I believe that all programmers should strive for the best possible work they can do, not just getting it working.
The way I do this is by 1) Never quitting on a job. I see it from start to finish 2) Make sure my code is excatly what my client needs. 3) Testing it constantly & making patches wherever necessary!

I believe that in this field you need a strong work ethic! Wait, no, You definitely need a strong work ethic! Because this is technology we are always changing always evolving! If you don't try your best, someone else is & they will get the contracts/jobs!


Again, you have the luxury of forming that opinion from the perspective of a contract perspective where you quote the scope, price and delivery date of the final product. A great many other people, however, work for a company and they don't determine the scope and delivery date nor the quality of the final product. Oftentimes you'll get a scenario like this:
  • Get told about the project, its scope and deliverable product
  • The date it must be delivered
  • You code it to a bare-bones "it's working" state first
  • Then, allowing for time left, scope creep, changes to the original spec (again, something you don't control), participation or assignment of new project(s) and/or moving deadlines...THEN you go back and code as much of the quality that the bare-bones version didn't absolutely require in order to meet the delivery deadline

That's the way a lot of developers have to work. It's not the way they prefer to work but the business needs/decisions of the firms who employ them supercede superior code product all the time.
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#42 Shane Hudson  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 13 June 2010 - 01:48 PM

It is terrible how many times I have tried to perfect my project at college (not necessarily code even, it is true with everything) and the teacher says "just get it working and in before deadline" then does not mark it for about 6 months anyway!
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#43 Mastermind_13  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 13 June 2010 - 04:42 PM

View PostCraig328, on 13 June 2010 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostMastermind_13, on 12 June 2010 - 04:10 PM, said:

Quote

so what if im 22


@ kidD1988 Ok you're 22, & you're a beginner. That means You need to respect PsychoCoder & understand that he has WAY more experience than you! I'm 21, I've been doing this close to 5 yrs now, and everyday I learn something new!


I'll respectfully disagree. Respect isn't something automatically granted after a comparison of calendars. While Psychocoder may indeed be possessed of superior qualities as a software dev, demanding respect for him due solely on a comparison of his time in service versus others of less time is equally incorrect. Believe me, at my last contract I was "blessed" to make the acquaintance of another dev who had around the same amount of time in the field as I did and, without throwing bouquets my own way, he had perhaps half the actual skill of coding an app. That was the private opinion of myself (when I was assigned to fix code he had just finished writing) as well as the opinion of the CTO (who wanted to pull him entirely off the project in question in favor of myself or another coder). Age/experience is not the sole determiner of whether someone should "respect" someone else...although it's doesn't hurt to respect everyone until they give you a reason not to.

Quote

About the topic! I believe that all programmers should strive for the best possible work they can do, not just getting it working.
The way I do this is by 1) Never quitting on a job. I see it from start to finish 2) Make sure my code is excatly what my client needs. 3) Testing it constantly & making patches wherever necessary!

I believe that in this field you need a strong work ethic! Wait, no, You definitely need a strong work ethic! Because this is technology we are always changing always evolving! If you don't try your best, someone else is & they will get the contracts/jobs!


Again, you have the luxury of forming that opinion from the perspective of a contract perspective where you quote the scope, price and delivery date of the final product. A great many other people, however, work for a company and they don't determine the scope and delivery date nor the quality of the final product. Oftentimes you'll get a scenario like this:
  • Get told about the project, its scope and deliverable product
  • The date it must be delivered
  • You code it to a bare-bones "it's working" state first
  • Then, allowing for time left, scope creep, changes to the original spec (again, something you don't control), participation or assignment of new project(s) and/or moving deadlines...THEN you go back and code as much of the quality that the bare-bones version didn't absolutely require in order to meet the delivery deadline

That's the way a lot of developers have to work. It's not the way they prefer to work but the business needs/decisions of the firms who employ them supercede superior code product all the time.



@ Craig 328, I agree Respect isn't something you automatically give, psychoCoder, clearly knows & understands what he is talking about! I have had well over 100's of contracts to FIX issues that other programmers have botched up because they have HELP from other people & don't really understand what they're doing. From my experience If you need help, it shows that you don't understand your stuff. You either have it or don't! I do agree that age doesn't play a big part, but maturity does! I know how developers work, because I have had to fix what they mess up. It just bothers me to see someone talking about something that they don't know too much about. Every contract is different mind you so experience is key! And mistake me if I am wrong you have the tone that if you get it working you're pretty happy. I don't! I work very hard! ;)
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#44 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:07 PM

Did everyone skip English class? If you guys speak like you write, how can you expect anyone to listen to anything you have to say?
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#45 alias120  Icon User is offline

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Re: Get it working versus get it working the right way

Posted 13 June 2010 - 05:38 PM

View PostKYA, on 13 June 2010 - 04:07 PM, said:

Did everyone skip English class? If you guys speak like you write, how can you expect anyone to listen to anything you have to say?


I can always count on KYA to break from the arguement at hand, and critique certain posters grammar. I am glad you did though, my headache will hopefully go away now.

-alias
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