[Programmist]

Raynes, on 27 July 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

I think you took a whole lot of words out of my mouth that didn't belong there.

I'm deeply sorry for coming off the wrong way. Rest assured, I have no contempt towards Groovy or it's users. Just because I enjoy and advocate Clojure doesn't mean I hate and wish to abolish everything else.

Raynes, I've read enough of your posts to know your opinions on Java and other languages vs Clojure/Scala. And I will admit that nothing you said was overtly offensive, but when I peeked just a little between the lines I detected condescension to Java/Groovy users. I'm not personally offended but your comments, but I felt they should be addressed. Maybe you didn't mean anything like what I read, but you should be aware of how you are perceived. Let me disclaimer once again: I don't give a flying fig about Groovy. It's just another tool in an ever-expanding array of tools that I might choose to get a job done.

Raynes, on 26 July 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

I think Groovy is generally good at what it was meant for: a scripting language that isn't Java...

Condescending. Groovy is a lot more than "a scripting language that isn't Java."

Raynes, on 26 July 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

...but isn't so far away from Java that you actually have to think about things.

Subtle, but still condescending - as if people interested in Groovy are Java developers who don't want to "think about things." This couldn't be farther from the truth. In fact, I would be very surprised if I found out that people writing Groovy code were doing so in a Java syntax. It's understandable if they are learning Groovy and staring from a Java perspective, but Groovy code can be quite different than Java.

Raynes, on 26 July 2010 - 09:13 AM, said:

I can see it's utility for people who are used to Java, and aren't interested in moving very far our of their comfort zone by using Clojure or Scala.

Do I even need to tell you why this is condescending? Once again the implication is that these developers are lazy (my word), taking the path of least resistance instead of challenging themselves with a language which you obviously feel is superior, like Scala or Clojure.

I'm not trying to word-smith you to death, but surely I'm not the only one who read these comments and felt that they smacked just a bit of recursive language fanboy-ism. Am I? I don't think anyone holds it against you. You're passionate about Clojure. That's cool. But not everyone feels the same.

[Raynes]

Oh come on! Talk about over-analyzing! Seriously, if everything I said is truly "condescending", I guess I just need to leave, because obviously everything I say is condescending.

Groovy is a scripting language that isn't Java. How is this condescending or incorrect? Am I wrong in saying that Java is an object oriented language that isn't Smalltalk? Was that condescending?

And how is pointing out that Groovy is apparently supposed to be really easy to pick up by Java developers condescending?

Am I wrong in saying that Clojure, at the very least, is pretty far outside of a typical Java developer with no serious Lisp or FP experience's comfort zone? Is that seriously condescending? It's nothing to do with the "easy path" or laziness, and everything to do with time, familiarity, and availability. And where did I say or imply that Clojure and Scala are better than *anything*? I don't understand how you're pulling all of these rabbits out of such a very tiny hat.

I've went on the record a thousand times saying that I'm fond of many languages and not all of them are JVM or predominately functional languages. I'm a polyglot sort of person. Clojure is my favorite language, but it isn't the only language I use, like, or am interested in. It's interesting how these sorts of threads always turn into threads about me, and how I think my languages are superior to all other languages, and the contempt I have for other languages and their users. I'd very much enjoy to be able to discuss other languages without devolving into these discussions.

Quote

Raynes, I've read enough of your posts to know your opinions on Java and other languages vs Clojure/Scala.

Really? Obviously, I do not like Java. I've said that before. But you're doing a really wide generalization when you point out my opinions on "other languages vs Clojure/Scala". What other languages are we talking about here? Are you implying that I believe Clojure and Scala to be superior to everything else? I'd be inclined to ask for the post(s) where I've made such a declaration.

[PsychoCoder]

COme on guys, this is turning into another This language sucks, my language is better thread (Not directed at any one person). Let's try to keep this on topic mmkay

[Raynes]

PsychoCoder, on 28 July 2010 - 10:27 AM, said:

COme on guys, this is turning into another This language sucks, my language is better thread (Not directed at any one person). Let's try to keep this on topic mmkay

I think you mean a Raynes said this, Raynes said that, but he really meant this, and he really meant that. thread. The ship has sailed as far as keeping it on-topic. I'd happily continue the discussion about the totally horrible things I say and how I think Clojure is the BEST THING EVAR in PM though, if he so desires.

For the people who were actually enjoying the thread and the discussion: sorry for posting and turning it into this.

[PsychoCoder]

Raynes I said it was not directed at any one person and that's what I meant. If you want to think in your head that I was directing that at you then by all means be my guest

[Raynes]

PsychoCoder, on 28 July 2010 - 10:33 AM, said:

Raynes I said it was not directed at any one person and that's what I meant. If you want to think in your head that I was directing that at you then by all means be my guest

I didn't assume it was directed at me. I don't really even know what you were directing it at in general. Nobody (that I saw) was having a this language sucks my language is better discussion. Rather, it was unsurprisingly devolving into my flaws and how they're having such a negative impact on the DiC atmosphere.

EDIT: After some thought, I think I just need some ground-rules to be put down for me. So, I'm not allowed to prefer any one language over others, have/express a negative opinion of any other languages, say anything positive about languages I like, or in this case, say *anything* because everything I could possibly say is condescending.

I think if we lay down some rules, we can fix these problems.

This post has been edited by Raynes: 28 July 2010 - 11:54 AM

[Programmist]

Raynes, on 28 July 2010 - 11:25 AM, said:

Oh come on! Talk about over-analyzing! Seriously, if everything I said is truly "condescending", I guess I just need to leave, because obviously everything I say is condescending...

Overreact much?

Programable, on 28 July 2010 - 11:56 AM, said:

You, sir, are an asshole.

Just thought I'd share. Programable just PMed me this gem, no doubt in response to my post and Raynes' subsequent tantrum. If I'd known calling him out on his words would have caused such a stir I would have left you alone. Geez. Grow up boys.

This post has been edited by Programmist: 28 July 2010 - 12:02 PM

[PsychoCoder]

Come on now Raynes, the whole Oh woe is me, everyone hates me so I'll just eat worms display doesn't look good on you. You know well and good that you have a history of being condescending to others based on the language they choose (We've had this discussion before I believe) and there are always consequences for actions. The best thing to do is deal with the consequences and move forward (feeling sorry for yourself isn't going to solve anything).

So what if you prefer a language, that doesn't mean you have to come across as that being the only true language for anyone to use (and you know you've done it before). I prefer C# but I'm not going to sit in a thread and make it seem that anyone who doesn't use C# is stupid or lazy (Yes I think Programmist has some valid points, and I did take some of what you said the same way he did).

No one hates you (to my knowledge anyways) but they're also going to react when you come across that way (That's part of life and something you need to get used to and ready for)

[macosxnerd101]

Programmist, could you add me to that conversation?

As this thread has turned into a flame war, I'm closing it. Raynes, everyone has their favorite languages. You tend to beat on the Scala/Clojure drum every chance you get. Understanding new technologies, and debating their merits is always good. But it should be done in a less heated, more professional manner. Programmist recommends functional JVM languages a fair amount, so the fact that he said something speaks volumes. Please consider this in future discussions.