[Topher84]

I was specifically calling you out it just seemsto be a common mistake. To me, it shows that the person most likely has no idea about what they are talking about if they can't get the difference between the two words. Self taught programmer seems a bit sketchy to me. You wouldn't read "teach yourself to build a house in 24 hours" and consider yourself a carpenter would you? Same applies to cs. You need formal training under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing in order to get a grasp on the fundamentals. Not to say that there aren't a rare few who can teach themselves but chances are these self taught programmers are probably full of themselves andnot nearly as good as they think.


Sorry I was not calling you out..I'm going to have to find a comp so I can edit my posts

[NickDMax]

I have always been baffled at this idea: "I have a degree in X and so I need a job in field X or I have wasted my time"

For years now students have been getting a degrees and then complaining that they can't get their "dream jobs" or more accurately their "envisioned jobs". I have a degree in mathematics and I would really have loved to get a job in aerospace (seriously I really think we need to work on our escape plan off of this rock). -- but I ended up working as a consultant on web development. My job as nothing what-so-ever to do with my degree. I might as well have a degree in algorithmic dog-walking for all HR cared, so long as they could check off "degree in related field" on the list of requirements they are happy -- there is no solid definition of "related field".

Often a degree in X will result in a job in Y -- and that is just the way things go.

I think another problem is that CS degrees are getting a little out of touch. One of the reasons we have an outsourcing program is because training up offshore developers is cheaper than training local ones. To be a JavaEE developer in a modern world you need quite a lot of specialized knowledge and there are two ways to get it -- expensive training programs or on the job experience. Both methods are really expensive for the employer. CS degree programs teach you all about algorithms and analysis but very little about actually putting any of that knowledge into practical use as a programmer. How many schools have classes: "JQuery 101", "Advanced Ajax and JSON", "Constructing RDMS structures for optimal SQL Queries", "Win32 Platform 101", "WPF Design 202", "Survey of Modern Programming Literature" (imagine doing comparative essays on O'Reilly books ).

Of course all of these titles talk about current technology and 5 year from now they will be of little use -- but my point is that perhaps Universities need to find ways of giving students modern practical experience -- that would probably make these students more attractive to the job market.

[Topher84]

I agree 100% we seem to graduate with nothing more than a piece of paper. I suppose that is what entry level associate jobs are for but I believe students need to have something to show in addition to the piece of paper.

[Dogstopper]

Topher84, on 16 July 2010 - 11:30 AM, said:

I was specifically calling you out it just seemsto be a common mistake. To me, it shows that the person most likely has no idea about what they are talking about if they can't get the difference between the two words. Self taught programmer seems a bit sketchy to me. You wouldn't read "teach yourself to build a house in 24 hours" and consider yourself a carpenter would you? Same applies to cs. You need formal training under the guidance of someone who knows what they are doing in order to get a grasp on the fundamentals. Not to say that there aren't a rare few who can teach themselves but chances are these self taught programmers are probably full of themselves andnot nearly as good as they think.


Sorry I was not calling you out..I'm going to have to find a comp so I can edit my posts

I'm a self-taught programmer...

[Valek]

Topher84, on 16 July 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

Self taught programmer seems a bit sketchy to me. You wouldn't read "teach yourself to build a house in 24 hours" and consider yourself a carpenter would you?

I am a self-taught programmer, and I didn't teach myself how to write code in 24 hours. I've spent years teaching myself how to do it.

And if you think teaching yourself something is unwise/unlikely/inferior, talk to some of the self-taught musicians out there making more money than any of us here. Talk to the self-taught basketball players, football players, baseball players. There are people who learn better from being taught by another, and there are people who learn better on their own.

Besides, anyone who thinks they can learn how to do something to a professional-quality level in 24 hours is deluding themselves.

[Topher84]

Exactly.. you guys are self taught PROGRAMMERS... not self taught computer scientists. I can write up specs and give it to just about any cube dweller and they can program but can't tell me the "Why" of the decisions made (not to say that some of you guys can't.. you've more than proven yourself from what I've seen on here). I agree that there are some people out there who can do just fine w/ the self taught thing. I stated that in my post. I've seen plenty of posts by Dogstopper and I would trust him to do something correctly. Even that macosx kid puts out some nice stuff and he is only in HS. However, I do believe (personal opinion) that the quality that you will get out of someone who has been through more formal training will most likely be better 9 times out of 10.

This post has been edited by Topher84: 16 July 2010 - 11:06 PM

[raziel_]

i can totally disagree with you. the CSS dont make you programmer and will never do. never study CSS i was a lucky that my father do this for a living and i grow up with computers (the far 1988 was when i got my first PC). i have degree in Electronics in the University(well still study it) and Economy in HS and i never want to work that. Teaching them dont mean that they will listen to you or that they will learn something.

This post has been edited by NoBrain: 17 July 2010 - 05:18 AM

[Dogstopper]

Topher84, on 17 July 2010 - 01:05 AM, said:

Even that macosx kid puts out some nice stuff and he is only in HS.

I am younger than macosxnerd101 is.

I disagree that formal education makes you better. Especially nowadays where cheating in a computer science program is high. Some of the best programmers that will exist are those who do it for fun in their mother's basement. (Not literally of course), but I hope you get my point?

[SpeedisaVirus]

There is still a difference unless you also pulled out some theory books to tie it together. A good educated programmer knows more 'why' than a typical good self taught programmer. The (regular) crowd on this forum isn't what would be considered typical so don't get your panties in a wad. Whether the 'why' matters is entirely on the work you are doing. In a lot of cases I suppose that as long as it works and looks OK that is enough. Still, having an in depth formal education on algorithms and data structures at the least will really benefit any programmer.

There are self taught that are better than educated and educated better than self taught. Doesn't really matter as long as you do your job effectively.

[NickDMax]

I am a self-taught programmer -- in fact as an avid autodidactic homosapien I have taught myself many things.

Now I did go to school and got a degree in mathematics, and while I was there I took some programming classes, but I can tell you that as far as being a "programmer" goes, that school did not teach me a thing. They may have formalized some concepts for me, but even there I spent a great amount of time taking advantage of the school library.

More to the point, those "Pop culture" programming books sold a B&N have 1000x the relevant information then the text books in school. Who the hell need someone who can program a red-black tree -- we need someone who knows the "framework du jour" -- I could care less if you know TurboC++, do you know Visual Studio 2008? I could care less if you know Java, do you know swing? swt?

Not only that but a self-taught programmers are motivated to do research, and research is one of the MOST important skills of a developer.

To summarize: a self-taught developer is more likely to know modern frameworks and techniques, and is more likely to be motivated and interested in learning new things. People with degrees always feel like they know it all when in fact their education is always at last 10 years out of date.

(note... I am perhaps being a more than a little judgmental and unfair... please do not take by blatant trolling to heart)

[SixOfEleven]

I've learned far more on my own than I learned taking CS in the classroom. I was given a good foundation in basic problem solving skills but they didn't help me with what happens out here. You don't have to be an expert in programming, being an expert in learning will help you far more. Things are constantly changing and you have to keep pace. You need to keep current and learn the new things as they come out.

[Topher84]

I'm not trying to bash any egos. College isn't meant to "teach" you everything you need to know. A professor isn't there to teach you. They are there to facilitate your learning. You will do quite a bit of self learning but having access to mentors/guides to help you along WILL make you a better "programmer". Those who cheat are only hurting themselves. Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter where you got your degree/education from if you are terrible at what you do. So you know a few frameworks, great! Does a typical programmer understand why the framework behaves like it does? probably not. Like SpeedIsAVirus said, this isn't the typical crowd so I would expect you guys to have a good grasp on things. I guess I should rephrase and say that you probably do not want to be self taught for the foundation. Eventually everyone will be self taught in some way as your career advances and you need to learn new skills. But having a good foundation will make this much easier.

[NickDMax]

Look I think school is great. I wish I could go back. It has its place. Just don't pre-judge self taught programmers because you will often find that they know far more about actual programming than CS graduates. Sure they may not know the theory (but they probably do) behind every little classic structure but they will know how to solve problems and write code and will have a better understanding of modern practices.

There are areas where there is a huge difference between laymen and professionals, but programming is a much more level playing field, there maybe a huge gap between beginners and gurus, but not such of a distinction between CS grads and a hobbyist. In point of fact, traditionally programmers have more often come from other fields (mathematics, physics, engineering) with these people having no formal training is CS.

Programming is about problem solving. About learning how to think abstractly about how to solve problems using little steps. Its about recognizing and exploiting patterns to a desired end... It just does not require a formal education in CS to do well.

Quote

Eventually everyone will be self taught in some way as your career advances and you need to learn new skills. But having a good foundation will make this much easier.

How so? Isn't teaching yourself to program plenty of preparation for teaching yourself MORE programming...

I am not trying to knock a formal education, but a formal education does not make a programmer. Programming is a particular set of problem solving skills and you don't need to get a formal education to learn how to use them -- now it may HELP if you have those skills to get a formal education, but it is not necessary.

[Vestah]

Computer science != programming.

On a different note a person I know was sent to my university to have some extra courses about software reliability and formal verification by her employer. I wonder if it is much harder for autodidact people to land a job at a company producing safety-critical software compared to people with degrees.

[Jstall]

I'm a recent graduate of a two year software development program. I feel I got allot out of it,small class size(started with 30 ended with 7), the learning was hands on and(most of) the instructors were excellent. I am currently working as a junior web developer at a small company I landed a work term with while I was in school.

I am concerned about outsourcing and it's impact on the job market however it has been impressed upon me time and again that, allot of the time, more than anything companies value communication skills. Being able to communicate and work on a team is essential to meeting deadlines and successful deployment.

I've read numerous articles saying that IT is going to continue to boom and there will be more jobs than people to fill them and I've read articles that say just the opposite. I'm just going to do my best to continue to learn and add to my skill set and keep networking with others so my options are open.

Oh and on a side note one of my instructors gave us some advice, he said when we graduate and land our first job we should stay for a year or two at max and start looking for something new because they will not be paying you what you are worth by that time. He also said if you are at a job for more than two years and haven't learned anything new, find a new place to work because you are going to be left behind. Both seem like pretty good advice , but then again what do I know I've been in the industry for all of three months .

This post has been edited by Jstall: 21 July 2010 - 01:17 PM