Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

How will the Pope respond to God not creating the universe?

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122 Replies - 4111 Views - Last Post: 13 September 2010 - 07:40 PM

#31 trip2137  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 04 September 2010 - 12:32 PM

I really respect Hawking and his great achievements - especially as he suffers from this hard disease. But in the last months it looks like he claims for attention.

He recently told the world not to communicate with aliens and he published rendered images of aliens - how they may look. In my opinion a serious scientist does no such things.


regarding alien images:
http://dsc.discovery...s/pictures.html

regarding communication with aliens:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36769422/

I don't know what's recently up with him but I can't take him seriously no more.

This post has been edited by trip2137: 04 September 2010 - 12:41 PM

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#32 Elcric  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 06 September 2010 - 09:46 PM


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#33 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 12:37 AM

Quote

How is something from nothing because of physics more plausible?


Occam's razor?
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#34 biggerB  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 03:08 AM

I think it is easy enough to eliminate his theory...

1) In the beginning there was only space and there was no matter or energy in space...

2) Then the big bang came...
(Problem # 1): The big bang was a massive blast pure energy... The laws of physics state that "Energy is neither created, nor destroyed, but can be changed from one form to another". Where did the energy for the big bang came from??? (i.e. GOD)

This post has been edited by biggerB: 07 September 2010 - 03:10 AM

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#35 baavgai  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 03:52 AM

View PostbiggerB, on 07 September 2010 - 04:08 AM, said:

Where did the energy for the big bang came from??? (i.e. GOD)


Or the flying spaghetti monster. Assigning any attributes to what is essentially Aristotle's unmoved mover is an act of uninformed self gratification. Attributing something to an unknowable force and then claiming you know what that unknowable thing is...
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#36 cfoley  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 04:42 AM

View PostWolfCoder, on 04 September 2010 - 05:09 AM, said:

In reality, all this junk came from somewhere unknown. Even so, we still have good ideas. The most common point you'll hear is the fact that instead of pretending to know (by putting God in the gaps or making up armchair stories like religions do), we know we don't know and decide to then actually explore and find out.

Even if we can't yet explore, we will in the future. Often what happens is we discover something even more amazing and unexpected- something we weren't even looking for.

Lots of creationists also don't understand the idea of a useful model. The Earth is not flat, yet for non-nautical distances, doing the math as though the Earth were flat would still get you useful results. Same goes for Newton's models on the Newtonian scale. We end up discarding, and extending these models with better ones.

One of the main drives behind Atheism is that the evidence is suggesting a direction that is completely different than the idea of a God. Even with all of this, there is no religious idea put forth by Atheism as it's only a disbelief in Theism. They don't buy religion, but they aren't selling anything different either- they don't care or need to. The most an Atheist would (or should) do is to attempt to get you to think rationally and reasonably about your own beliefs.



I think you're describing agnosticism here. Atheism is a believe there is no god. Agnosticism is neither believing there is nor that there isn't.
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#37 blutrane  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:15 AM

View PostChristoph, on 02 September 2010 - 02:24 PM, said:

Great points. Let's just give up on finding the answer and assume it was God.


Philosophically speaking, an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent being trumps most conclusions since as evidenced by its attributes, this being is also infinite in nature. From the perspective of both the kalam and vertical causality arguments, the first cause and the efficient cause; respectively; must be uncaused.

@baavgai - an infinite being with only finite powers is a contradiction, just as a finite being with infinite powers is also a contradiction
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#38 blutrane  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:32 AM

this is a conversation best discussed over a tall glass of beer and a cigar :bananaman:
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#39 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:38 AM

View PostbiggerB, on 07 September 2010 - 02:08 AM, said:

2) Then the big bang came...
(Problem # 1): The big bang was a massive blast pure energy... The laws of physics state that "Energy is neither created, nor destroyed, but can be changed from one form to another". Where did the energy for the big bang came from??? (i.e. GOD)


Guessing you didn't actually look at any of Stephen Hawkings' latest book then? Although I've not read it myself, I have read articles about it, and saw an interview somewhere about it (forget where now though :() Also contained in the book, and I believe covered elsewhere, is his opinions on the whole 'multiverse' thing. An infinite number of universes, one after another. That's where the energy for the Big Bang comes from - the remains of the previous universe, probably pulled together into one spot by, you guessed it, gravity, maybe some kind of uber black hole like we have at the centre of our galaxy, well, it's much bigger cousin anyways.

I think this is where his assertion that gravity can cause something to be made from nothing...He wasn't talking about literally nothing, some absolute void, he was talking to all those tiny little fragments of a previous universe coming together due to gravity, eventually resulting in the Big Bang.

So, unless god is the remains of a dead universe, his theory doesn't rely on their being any intelligent being there to kick start it all off.

View Postblutrane, on 07 September 2010 - 04:32 AM, said:

this is a conversation best discussed over a tall glass of beer and a cigar :bananaman:



Ooh, agreed. Pub philosophy FTW!!!
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#40 blutrane  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:45 AM

View PostBort, on 07 September 2010 - 04:38 AM, said:

View PostbiggerB, on 07 September 2010 - 02:08 AM, said:

2) Then the big bang came...
(Problem # 1): The big bang was a massive blast pure energy... The laws of physics state that "Energy is neither created, nor destroyed, but can be changed from one form to another". Where did the energy for the big bang came from??? (i.e. GOD)


Guessing you didn't actually look at any of Stephen Hawkings' latest book then? Although I've not read it myself, I have read articles about it, and saw an interview somewhere about it (forget where now though :() Also contained in the book, and I believe covered elsewhere, is his opinions on the whole 'multiverse' thing. An infinite number of universes, one after another. That's where the energy for the Big Bang comes from - the remains of the previous universe, probably pulled together into one spot by, you guessed it, gravity, maybe some kind of uber black hole like we have at the centre of our galaxy, well, it's much bigger cousin anyways.

I think this is where his assertion that gravity can cause something to be made from nothing...He wasn't talking about literally nothing, some absolute void, he was talking to all those tiny little fragments of a previous universe coming together due to gravity, eventually resulting in the Big Bang.

So, unless god is the remains of a dead universe, his theory doesn't rely on their being any intelligent being there to kick start it all off.

View Postblutrane, on 07 September 2010 - 04:32 AM, said:

this is a conversation best discussed over a tall glass of beer and a cigar :bananaman:



Ooh, agreed. Pub philosophy FTW!!!


order me up a guinness

the problem with hawkings view of a multiverse in the explanation is that it implies infinite recursion. which is not plausible
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#41 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:51 AM

*Plonks a guiness on the table in front of blutrane*

Maybe he just hadn't factored that bit into his calculations. Or maybe he thought about it and decided that compared to our lifetimes, the multiverse theory may as well last forever. As in, expecting some energy 'leak off' from the dying universe, so the next one will be a tiny bit smaller, but given that there is so much energy out there anyways, that tiny little bit of energy really isn't going to make too much of a difference when it comes to infinite universes. Maybe resulting in infinite minus one universes, but to our tiny little minds, it may as well be infinite.
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#42 blutrane  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:55 AM

View PostBort, on 07 September 2010 - 04:51 AM, said:

*Plonks a guiness on the table in front of blutrane*

Maybe he just hadn't factored that bit into his calculations. Or maybe he thought about it and decided that compared to our lifetimes, the multiverse theory may as well last forever. As in, expecting some energy 'leak off' from the dying universe, so the next one will be a tiny bit smaller, but given that there is so much energy out there anyways, that tiny little bit of energy really isn't going to make too much of a difference when it comes to infinite universes. Maybe resulting in infinite minus one universes, but to our tiny little minds, it may as well be infinite.

*gladly takes a sip* much thanks

Looking toward the "future" it would appear to us on the cosmic scale to be infinite since our minds can't wrap around that but all things must have a beginning
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#43 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:25 AM

Hmm, maybe. I can see your logic there, but if you are starting off with an infinite amount of energy, why does there need to be a beginning, or and end for that matter? Just some kind of interdimensional cosmic infinite loop.
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#44 blutrane  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:46 AM

View PostBort, on 07 September 2010 - 05:25 AM, said:

Hmm, maybe. I can see your logic there, but if you are starting off with an infinite amount of energy, why does there need to be a beginning, or and end for that matter? Just some kind of interdimensional cosmic infinite loop.


then the energy would have indeed caused itself and would it not be reasonable to assume that since it is infinite in relation to time, it also infinite in all other aspects?




@anyone for their edification. when in doubt follow the three laws. Identity (it is what it is), noncontradiction (it can't be and not be in the same instant and regard) and excluded middle (it either is or it isn't, no third option)

This post has been edited by blutrane: 07 September 2010 - 06:52 AM

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#45 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Stephen Hawking Says God Did Not Create the Universe! How Was the

Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:58 AM

Hmmm, I see where you are coming from there, and I guess you could be right. But if this infinite energy was god, or some god-like being, that doesn't neccessarily mean intelligent design, just means some infinite source of energy is out there.
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