wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

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#1 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:20 PM

After watching the dealings of the Wikileaks.. er.. leaks this morning, and a bit of prior discussion I have been engaging in with friends I am curious on the masses thoughts for the topic.

Our arguments have raged from this is all about transparency to toss the treason book at them. Clearly the source of the leaks will be tried for treason when found, and I think that is still punishable by death. That'll suck for the office clerk or three that facilitated the document transfer.

Any idea how Wikileaks got a hold of the docs? Sources? Hacked data? Missing laptops?

What is Wikileaks?
Secretary of State condemnations

Side question - is Wikileaks an only US centric group? Meaning do they only attack the US are they taking each nation as fair game?

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#2 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:42 PM

how did they get it... hrmmm... because the people bitching that this is a breach of their security failed to have proper employees that wouldn't breach their security.

Sorry, but it's their own fault for letting it get out...once out the door, well that's a whole different ball game. In which I believe wikileaks played rather fairly, they weren't going on infiltration missions, actively attempting to collect this data (unless there's info I'm unaware of). All it boils down to is: "when you were informed of covert and secret information, that you didn't actively seek, then you should keep your mouth shut like a good little American... err wait you're not American. What ever... you best listen to us when we say ignore what we wrote down and handed you, we have guns."


As for the people who actually released the data. They will deal with whatever consequences are due to them by contracts to which they were abliged to follow by taking a job that dealt with secure data (note, they actively & willingly ignored any formal/informal contract they agreed upon when taking their job, unlike wikileaks members who have no contract or other such to which they actively agreed to ever). Though "treason... punishable by death", is IMHO ridiculous, callous, and all around a bad idea from my Humanist point of view.



In the end I wouldn't call wikileaks dbags or heroes. They're guys who received info from people who felt the world aught to know, and they had the balls to show it to the world. To those who didn't want to know... dbags. To some who think this is heroes work... heroes. To me and probably a whole bunch... overhyped nonsense sensationalized by both sides.

Who I really think are the dbags, as the first sentence stated... the fucking idiots who didn't take the steps necessary to protect data, when they seem to feel it could hurt the world so badly. That's like yelling at Pandora for opening the box. If it shouldn't have been opened, then you should have locked it and not hand it to a curious and clutsy little girl.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 29 November 2010 - 08:56 PM

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#3 SpeedisaVirus  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 29 November 2010 - 09:45 PM

"their own fault." Only in part, the folks at wiki leaks should have the morality to realize that releasing these documents could lead to deaths. Who knows, if the harsh words spoken of Iran or North Korea triggers war then there ould be thousands of lives lost. All because some pompous collection of jerks that have no concept of what constitutes sensitive or life threatening intelligence documents. These documents do not just hurt the US, they hurt the world. They involve many nations.

This post has been edited by SpeedisaVirus: 29 November 2010 - 09:46 PM

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#4 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 29 November 2010 - 10:23 PM

I don't know. I like the freedom of information and all of that, but some information can be as lethal as a battalion. Information is vital in war. One one side, these people support freedom. On the other, it's not really anything less than an attack on the United States.

I can't seem to take a side here.
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#5 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 29 November 2010 - 11:18 PM

If amateurs like wikileaks can get a hold of this information then would it be that much of a jump to think that anyone else could? Namely enemies of the state, terrorists, the works?

Consider this a nice whistle blown that our government needs to pay more attention. If the info is that valuable and important, perhaps better security, crypto, and other such measures should be implemented.

I side with it's their fault, they need to suck it up and secure themselves, otherwise any twit can hack them and make off with something that important.

I'm rather surprised more people aren't venting on the obvious impotence of the security...
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#6 NeoTifa  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 06:36 AM

I thought they were protected by whisteblower laws. :/ Plus military and DoD I think are forced to sign some type of contract that says you're going down if you do something like that.
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#7 Sergio Tapia  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 07:13 AM

You don't know what you're talking about.

Quote

Side question - is Wikileaks an only US centric group? Meaning do they only attack the US are they taking each nation as fair game?


They don't attack anyone. Everything Wikileaks releases is obtained by informants from within organizations, they don't hack, attack, phish or do anything illegal.
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#8 NeoTifa  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 07:26 AM

I read that somewhere, now I can't find. Maybe I am just retarded after all.
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#9 Sergio Tapia  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 07:39 AM

I was talking about OP, not you tifa
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#10 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:00 AM

Apparently there is a single person responsible. One Pfc Bradley Manning is being held and is the suspect. Apparently he is an intel analyst in Baghdad and was being investigated for previously leaking a video of an airstike in Iraq. He essentially downloaded around a quarter million decrypted diplomatic cables and other such classified documents, burned it to a CD he disguised as a Lady Gaga CD and walked out with it without issue.

So, what we have here is one Army private who somehow believes that his judgment trumps all others when it comes to deciding what classified material to declassify and publish. What he's done is indeed harmful to the United States and our allies. Diplomatic relations are the buffers between nations armed forces. Degrade the effectiveness of diplomacy and you push nations closer to war. It's that frickin' simple.

As this assclown is a soldier, he is not protected by whistleblower laws and whatnot and I believe if the evidence they have against him is good enough (and it seems to be if they have the disc full of documents he used to get them out of the intel center in Iraq) then he should rightfully be charged with treason and stand before a tribunal for his crimes. More than normal civilians he did swear an oath ("...I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...") so it would seem, if he did indeed do the things that are being alleged, that he's in substantial violation of that oath. What's worse is that his breach is not one of omission (failing to do something he should have done) but one of commission (actively doing something he shouldn't have done) and that the act is in itself treasonous and he should be exposed to the full range of penalties for such a finding.

So the commentary I heard yesterday on the radio from pundits about diplomatic cyphers and cable security and all that is crap. These were the decrypted, clear text copies of those cables so nobody super-haXz0rd anything to get these. Just some disgruntled private in Iraq who may possibly be looking at a very unsatisfactory future as a result.

Wikileaks has a legitimate purpose but for things like this, it ought to be held accountable as well. It's one thing to blow the whistle on a corporation dumping toxins into a river or something...it's entirely another to aid and abet treasonous activities.

This post has been edited by Craig328: 30 November 2010 - 08:01 AM

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#11 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:54 AM

View PostLemur, on 29 November 2010 - 10:18 PM, said:

If amateurs like wikileaks can get a hold of this information then would it be that much of a jump to think that anyone else could? Namely enemies of the state, terrorists, the works?

Consider this a nice whistle blown that our government needs to pay more attention. If the info is that valuable and important, perhaps better security, crypto, and other such measures should be implemented.

I side with it's their fault, they need to suck it up and secure themselves, otherwise any twit can hack them and make off with something that important.

I'm rather surprised more people aren't venting on the obvious impotence of the security...


Exactly!


We want to point and blame wikileaks... point and blame those who actually allowed the data to get out. That being the people who were supposed to secure the data in the first place!



An analogy that I think is worthy of comparison, as it relates to TRUE danger (and not implied possible danger). If I own a gun, and someone takes my gun because I failed to secure it properly, and they use that gun in a homicide... guess who is accountable... ME. And rightfully so, because I should have locked my gun up, taught anyone in my house respect for it, checked the status of my gun regularly, and reported it missing if I recognized it missing.

If this data was a "live gun" like the Pentagon and Military want to make it out to be... they should have taught their 16 year old son to respect it (Manning) and lock it up better, so he wouldn't go flashing it down at the Circle K to his other loser friends (the interbutts).
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#12 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 08:59 AM

View Postlordofduct, on 30 November 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

...
An analogy that I think is worthy of comparison, as it relates to TRUE danger (and not implied possible danger). If I own a gun, and someone takes my gun because I failed to secure it properly, and they use that gun in a homicide... guess who is accountable... ME. And rightfully so, because I should have locked my gun up, taught anyone in my house respect for it, checked the status of my gun regularly, and reported it missing if I recognized it missing.
...


Insane troll logic at its finest.

Well, I guess they'll be happy to give you the death penalty instead of.. you know, the homicidal maniac who killed someone in the first place.
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#13 NeoTifa  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 09:07 AM

But Wolfy, that man is jepordizing the lives of thousands, not just a few. And if he's comfortable releasing air strike vids and some security info, what else would he be comfortable leaking? We personally take training on the regular to prevent this type of thing. It's not like "he didn't know" or "he wasn't trained to know what to do and what not to do with said info" or "he didn't have the proper knowledge to make good judgements". He intentionally leaked info that could alter the political views, reveal technology, and help terrorists infiltrate.
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#14 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 09:14 AM

View PostWolfCoder, on 30 November 2010 - 07:59 AM, said:

View Postlordofduct, on 30 November 2010 - 08:54 AM, said:

...
An analogy that I think is worthy of comparison, as it relates to TRUE danger (and not implied possible danger). If I own a gun, and someone takes my gun because I failed to secure it properly, and they use that gun in a homicide... guess who is accountable... ME. And rightfully so, because I should have locked my gun up, taught anyone in my house respect for it, checked the status of my gun regularly, and reported it missing if I recognized it missing.
...


Insane troll logic at its finest.

Well, I guess they'll be happy to give you the death penalty instead of.. you know, the homicidal maniac who killed someone in the first place.



Do you not know gun laws? That's the law in many states here in the USA.

Of course the one who used the gun gets in trouble, but so does the owner of the gun.


I hope you are not a gun owner... because you apparently have no respect for a fire arm and your responsibility for one if you do own one.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 30 November 2010 - 09:17 AM

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#15 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: wikileaks - dbags or heroes?

Posted 30 November 2010 - 09:15 AM

View PostNeoTifa, on 30 November 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

But Wolfy, that man is jepordizing the lives of thousands, not just a few. And if he's comfortable releasing air strike vids and some security info, what else would he be comfortable leaking? We personally take training on the regular to prevent this type of thing. It's not like "he didn't know" or "he wasn't trained to know what to do and what not to do with said info" or "he didn't have the proper knowledge to make good judgements". He intentionally leaked info that could alter the political views, reveal technology, and help terrorists infiltrate.


It sounds like you're some how arguing in agreement with me, read my post a bit more carefully.

Quote

Do you not know gun laws? That's the law in many states here in the USA.

Of course the one who used the gun gets in trouble, but so does the owner of the gun.


Ironically, what I'm saying has nothing to do with US gun laws. Or guns.

This post has been edited by WolfCoder: 30 November 2010 - 09:16 AM

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