[Kilorn]

Too many chiefs, not enough indians.

[KYA]

Why are you posting as a guest instead of your regular account?

[Kilorn]

I'd say the comfort of anonymity might be the reason.

[modi123_1]

Totally leak the name! Information wants to be free!

[macosxnerd101]

Guest, on 23 December 2010 - 03:24 PM, said:

lordofduct, I see where you're coming from. But until you actually try going to a real school, and see what a real education is, you won't understand it's significance and what it offers. I

We all know that you went to an Ivy League school and had an awesome set of intro classes. For a lot of sub-par, standard, and even higher quality colleges, intro classes tend to be a rude awakening for a lot of people. For some, as we've all seen on the forums, they don't get programming immediately and it's frustrating. We've all been there for some field. For others, sitting through these intro classes while the instructor is shoving horrid practices down students' throats is equally frustrating, and I can relate to it.

People also do not necessarily need to major in computer science to be programmers. I'm not saying the topics focused on in a computer science major aren't helpful in real world development, but one doesn't need to be well-versed in AI or Graph Theory to do well in a business development environment, or as a freelance agent. Not everyone is going to be developing cutting edge, new technologies. And not all cutting edge technologies require a lot of computer science theory found in 3000+ level college courses. At my internship this summer, I worked as a Java developer on a pretty big research project for the military, and my boss and coworkers didn't view me as a high school intern. To make a point, if I had wanted to, I could have dropped out of high school and gone to work full time there. I may have only been in high school and my formal education for college level courses included some AP courses I took. I had also done some CS theory on my own.

My point is that school isn't necessarily the right thing for everyone, and isn't a prerequisite for being successful. In some cases, it can help you get in the door. In my case, I personally want a college education. Not everybody wants that, and it doesn't make them any worse as programmers, employees, or entrepreneurs.

[lordofduct]

Guest, on 23 December 2010 - 11:24 AM, said:

Yes, lordofduct, you're the next Bill Gates, you're the next Mark Zuckerberg... We all know there are exceptions to the rule, and nothing is absolutely required. I am talking about average-case scenarios here. In the average case, you should try doing more than dropping out of a community college if you want to be the best in business.

Did I say I was going to be the next Bill Gates? Nope, no I didn't. I implied that school isn't exactly necessary in all cases.

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Of course this doesn't mean school is worthless... I'm just saying I didn't need it.

Because you were doing freelancing. Nobody needs school to freelance. I successfully freelanced at 14 years old.

I didn't say to freelance and only stick with freelancing. I don't freelance anymore. BUT it was a wonderful learning experience. This doesn't mean I suggested dropping out of school either, I suggested doing some freelancing as well. It's a hell of a lot better then working at McDonald's for the extra spending cash while in school. And it makes more than most internships. (internships are awesome learning experiences as well... I've served one myself)

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And lastly, what makes you think everyone wants to run all the way to the top most position? Not everyone wants to be a doctor/lawyer/president/etc.

People do not major in Computer Science to become a doctor/lawyer/president/etc.

lordofduct, I see where you're coming from. But until you actually try going to a real school, and see what a real education is, you won't understand it's significance and what it offers. I

The doctor/lawyer/etc reference was an analogy. The classic "my son is a doctor", in this case, "My son is a successful computer engineer". Though... you NEED a degree to be a doctor, you don't to be a computer engineer. It helps for a large group of people, but it ain't necessary.

A 'real' school? Oh really... I didn't go to a 'real' school. Schucks, I feel so cheated. It's a good thing I didn't stick around that place and get screwed for more money.

I can't graciate you with anything more then a simple... fuck you. And you know who that fuck you is from? All the people in state colleges and community colleges. What are they less than you?

Everything you've said, what ever. But that last part, seriously, you're a dick.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 24 December 2010 - 01:13 PM

[Programmist]

You spent four paragraphs asking a question that could have been condensed to a few sentences. Read this before posting again.
http://www.catb.org/...-questions.html

[macosxnerd101]

Do you disagree with the points regarding the workplace made based solely on his educational background only? That's really how it comes across. I think he makes a very valid point. From what I've seen of CS curricula, intro classes teach you how to code, and the upper-level classes (save for Computer Organization/Assembly) teach theory for which coding assignments are required. And having sat through an intro class and having been in the workplace, I agree with him.

[coden4fun]

Obtaining a job as an experienced developer with "real world" experience of x amount of years on enterprise-level development work is as much of a social engineering job and builds your social engineering skills as does your comp sci skills.

If you want to be honest and do what KYA did, and not get the job then fine, go that route, but c'mon, how many people are going to be truthful with you?

My rule of thumb is "fake it until you make it" just make damn sure you're clever enough, skillful enough to never slip up.

I did this in the beginning after I had done some volutneer work, landed a few small business real-world application development and lied on a resume. Landed a job, then I finished the contract out, obtained another contract saw it to the end, and grabbed another one.

My resume at age 22 was, "Seeking .Net mid-level position" 3 years of experience, and my latest contracts, education, and references.

Bam, I landed the job!

Then, with other contracts I just added the previous contract and reference, and now I'm considered a 5+ years Senior Developer at a very young age.

Sure, I lied, very dishonest, but I was able to perform my duties, I never slipped up and I was able to use my social engineering skills, because I was wise enough to know they wouldn't take me "as is" in the beginning because of my lack of experience, but now it never comes up.

Now, I work for gov't/state organizations, private hospitals and I'm considered a very good consultant where I currently have 3 consulting jobs at once with my own company.

• A Microsoft Certified Partner
  
• A 1.8 Million contract with Duke Hospital
  
• Gov't/State consultant
  
• Travel frequently
  
• 5+ years of experience in enterprise-level industry
  
• lead developer for various projects

Why? I'm no smarter than any other average IQ programmer is, I just know how to use my social engineering skills and development skills, and problem solving skills to my advantage. Be pragmatic, and when it comes down to really difficult task be realistic. No one wants to work with a miracle worker, or one who considers them a Bill Gates or Mark Zuckerberg, etc...

Be pragmatic, work well with the team you're assigned with, or use them to your advantage and make damn sure that you show leadership skills but above all else that you are a problem solver!

Also, perception is reality.

This post has been edited by coden4fun: 25 December 2010 - 12:09 AM

[macosxnerd101]

Why go there at all then? lordofduct's point was comparing the workplace to school, not Community College to Carnegie Mellon. Let's keep things on topic. This thread is about gaining experience, not criticizing people for their educational paths.

[lordofduct]

Guest, on 25 December 2010 - 12:05 AM, said:

Do you disagree with the points regarding the workplace made based solely on his educational background only?

I'm disagreeing with lordofduct on what he said about the school. I'm not bringing up workplace into the discussion.

I disagreed with the above two points genuinely. If you attend a school that makes you feel like you're not being challenged and are not doing real work, it just means that you are in the wrong place and should choose another institution that is more fit for you.

Really? So if I didn't feel challenged by college... I should choose another institution?

Wait... isn't that what I said I did? I chose my home library chock full of books on linear algebra, discrete arithmetic, differentials, number theory, physics, organic chem, programming languages/design/theory, philosophy, history, and a whole shit load of classics spanning the gamut of both American and European writing. What did my girlfriend and I read this month? We sometimes read the same books so we can talk about it. Ummm, oh: Voltaire's "Candide", David Sedaris's "Squirrel Seeks Chipmunk", Kurt Vonnegut Jr's "Timequake". That was our fun time reading, let alone the stack of text books I tend to have scattered around my office floor.

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And having sat through an intro class and having been in the workplace, I agree with him.

Yes, macosxnerd, you took an AP class and did internship at some local company - high schoolers do it all the time. But an AP course is not a university, wait till you get there.

You worked soooooooo hard at school, good for you! I'm so proud of ya.

Dude I know so many people who went to school, graduated, all the wonderfulness. They have masters and the sort like that. And we all agree it's a bunch of bullshit. From the lowliest state college to affairs like Columbia and NYU. Shit I went around the country and visited many schools, where many of my friends attended. And we all seem to agree on it...

School is an educational wasteland that could be done all by yourself. The one thing this 'institution' has to offer other than a shiny piece of paper, is the opportunity to meet your peers.

And it's really good at that. I have friends who went places they wanted to go because of the people they met. Some others ended up in what before university looked like dream jobs, and ended up being crap.

But you can meet people other places as well. And you can learn the stuff other places. As a buddy of mine said after graduating college (which he almost dropped out of, but figured he spent so much money already he might as well not):

"I went to [art] college to learn 2 new hotkeys in 3DS Max that I didn't know yet."

A notorious dropout of the school he went to discovered my buddy in his own time (not at school though, on the internet, and the school thing was a commonality of some sort). And through this guy my buddy got his breakout job, the one that started off his career. All this dropout guy did was make a phone call to a studio he had influence at, a very large studio he had influence. Yep, the dropout had enough pull at a leading game studio that he could influence their choice of employees.

Oh no, maybe that was a bad anecdote. Art college might no be a 'real' school in your book probably. What's a 'real' school? Can you define this for me? You haven't defined this yet.


I still think it was good though, because it shows how college can be both useful and useless... depending the person. And it can help or not help in ways other than just what the classes offer. Don't get me wrong, I don't think college is useless for everyone. I think it's useless for a very large group... maybe not the largest group. But we're not a tiny group either.

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lordofduct, we're probably not on the same page, so let me condense our discussion. There are two things which you said that caused me to reply.

1.
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You need to do 'real work'. Real work is where you run head first into all the problems... and that's what programming is, problem solving. School is like learning to code at walking speed, jumping deep into the paid work is like a rocket ship.

How would you know what school is? Maybe sitting through high school math at a community college feels like you're not doing "real work", but I can assure that "real school" feels a bit different.

2. You have implied that doing the first two years of school is enough.
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My point to OP is that he's done some school. He's learned the walking bit... time to run!

Learned??? He just finished his second year. He barely began experiencing the whole point of school! In your own analogy "he is still learning the walking bit". And that brought me to the first point again

Well, we might not be because you earlier accused me of things I didn't say, and aren't included in this.

Sorry, you missed my point. The point of my original post you're so up in arms about, is I believe in a 'dive in the deep end' approach to learning. And my over the top post of animated banter was to exemplify this. Dive in, get shaken up, live or die trying. Stop taking the slow hand holding college where it takes 3 to 6 years to learn something you could technically learn in a fraction of the time... as long as you have the balls and discipline to tie those books to your nuts and leap.

You don't have to agree with me, that's cool. But I ain't wrong, this is my opinion, and my opinion stands time and time again. College is not the ONLY institution out there for learning. Sorry if I take an over the top approach to screaming that... but it needs to be heard, for all these kids blowing thousands of dollars on educations that they may not need or a lot of times not even use.

I'm tired of seeing these kids take degrees that they really deep down have no interest in and are doing because "you're supposed to go to school". Not saying the OP is that either, this is an open forum... I post to a larger audience than just the OP. Right now I'm posting to a larger audience than just you. Anyways, I'm tired of seeing these kids put themselves in debt above their ears, and what do they end up doing? Jobs that really only needed a highschool diploma. Good paying jobs, that have nothing to do with their degrees.

Fuck your university, because all my life I was told by your university that you MUST go to university to be something. And I was lied to.




You seem rather active in this community now... you should think about joining.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 25 December 2010 - 09:13 AM

[Dogstopper]

I really have to agree with lordofduct on many points. If you want to do freelancing, as long as you can do what you say you can do, you're good. Hell, I make $50-$70 an hour at age 16! No formal education with the exception of an AP class, which was basics anyway and virtually useless. An education is not totally necessary to do programming.

I'm not advocating not going to college. It is a competitive workplace out there and I'd like to add school on my resume with my 3 years of freelancing experience. I also plan on doing Computer research, which does require high level theory.

My point being, sometime experience outweighs school on the learning side of things because you have practical applications with challenges that you don't ever have with a textbook.