[Nakor]

I'd have to agree with the school isn't absolutely necessary as well. Of course this is speaking from my own personal experience. I dropped out of high school, but did end up going to a junior college recently. While I'm currently attending I do not have any sort of degree to show, but was able to get into a programming position at a large corporation. I just took in a portfolio of code snippets I'd worked on for school and printed out. That was enough to get me into the position. Maybe being an employee of the company already helped some, although it was in a completely unrelated field. I really think it was more to do with the fact that I came in prepared and organized and was able to show that I had at least had some experience in the fields they were interested in. I'm planning on finishing my degree, but I really feel my experience here will be worth more to most employers than that piece of paper ever will be.

[KYA]

coden4fun, on 24 December 2010 - 11:49 PM, said:

If you want to be honest and do what KYA did, and not get the job then fine, go that route, but c'mon, how many people are going to be truthful with you?

Hopefully everyone. I hold others to the same standard I hold to myself.

coden4fun, on 24 December 2010 - 11:49 PM, said:

Sure, I lied, very dishonest, but I was able to perform my duties, I never slipped up and I was able to use my social engineering skills, because I was wise enough to know they wouldn't take me "as is" in the beginning because of my lack of experience, but now it never comes up.

I'm occasionally a fan of the "the ends justify the means" policy, but this really isn't good advice to impart to people.


Honesty is the best policy.

[coden4fun]

What makes what I said bad advice that you wouldn't impart to people?

I'm not saying go out be a gangsta, lie, cheat, kill etc... I'm just saying, pick your battles, and occasionally, it is in your benefit to lie.


Honesty isn't the best policy either. There are a plethora of occasions that a lie will get you out of danger, get you far in life, and help you obtain certain things that the truth will simply not get you.

I work with many developers in various projects ranging from gov't work, medical software, and the simple small business application that offers tools for the regular small business. Out of all the contracts/consulting I do I'm the youngest programmer (unless their is a junior developer starting) and definitely the youngest Sr. developer\lead developer, but I get respect in all my contracts. People listen to me, people like how I solve problems, and they continue have me as their consultant, because I picked up the business fast, and learned how to solve problems pragmatically, and learned how to delegate work to various people on a team and make deadlines.

What I'm saying is, I wouldn't have what I have now in my job and most likely would still be a junior developer with the perception from the people I work with now as, "Oh he knows how to program, but he's less on the ladder as we are, so we're going to delegate work to him", but I'm on the same playing field, and I get respect.

If I hadn't lied, well, I'd be where KYA is or any junior developer and wouldn't get all the work I get now.

Learn when to lie and when to tell the truth, and perception is reality.

This post has been edited by coden4fun: 25 December 2010 - 10:46 AM

[lordofduct]

KYA said:

I hold others to the same standard I hold to myself.

KYA said:

Honesty is the best policy.

I agree with these statements alike. We may not be perfect at holding to them, but striving to be honest and to expect good from others is my daily practice.

That's why I was being honest and truthful about my opinions in this discussion. It's what I believe, no one has to agree with me, that'd be dishonest of me to expect of others. But it would be dishonest of me to pretend that I think school is the end all be all only method to get somewhere in this world. And in my business dealings I've been shot down for holding this opinion... but in the end my honesty allowed me to impart to those people who I was, and allowed me to gauge how they felt about it. And in the long run it saved me from getting stuck in a position where our differing opinions could harm our work. If they are so stern against having someone like me in their work, then I suspect that the conflict of interests would probably continue to get in the way.

But I'll give it to code4fun, we all have our own methods of getting the job done. I wouldn't say any one of us have the 'right' answer.




@code4fun - where are you located, and what carrier do you have, to be pulling 3ms pings and 88 megabit connections to Boca!? I wish I could get those speeds, and I'm located just north of Boca. (well I do see Applied Innovations is your ISP, never heard of em')

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 25 December 2010 - 11:59 AM

[KYA]

Quote

What makes what I said bad advice that you wouldn't impart to people?

I wouldn't lie about my credentials to get work.

[macosxnerd101]

I think there is a line between creating a resume and choosing your words vs. lying. It's one thing if you are a garbage collector and call yourself a "Sanitation Engineer," vs. not having any senior developer experience and claiming yourself to be a senior developer. Sure it may get you the job, but it also puts you in a difficult position if your employer finds out you lied.

When it comes to your integrity, only you can take it away from you, and once you violate it, it's very hard to convince people you have it.

[Nakor]

Quote

perception is reality.

I'm sorry but that statement is utter nonsense. Perception is simply how you view the world and that can change from one moment to the next. And while your perception may change depending on the facts presented to you, the reality doesn't.

This post has been edited by Nakor: 25 December 2010 - 04:26 PM

[KYA]

Actually I do agree with that statement, with a very important caveat:


People's perception is their reality.


The point being, what people see, think, do, etc... ultimately affects their decision making process, thus affecting their reality.

[Nakor]

It affects their view of reality, not the reality itself. In the instance of someone being lied to, that person may believe what you have told them, and while they believe the lie it may seem like that is the "reality". But if they find out the true reality, that they were lied to, then they are generally not very appreciative of having been lied to and may very well question any future dealings you may have with them.

[coden4fun]

macosxnerd101, on 25 December 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

I think there is a line between creating a resume and choosing your words vs. lying. It's one thing if you are a garbage collector and call yourself a "Sanitation Engineer," vs. not having any senior developer experience and claiming yourself to be a senior developer. Sure it may get you the job, but it also puts you in a difficult position if your employer finds out you lied.

When it comes to your integrity, only you can take it away from you, and once you violate it, it's very hard to convince people you have it.

Well, yes I'd agree with this statement if I wasn't a damn good programmer; however, my resume, past contracts, current contracts and prospects truly doesn't make this true for me. I'm not saying I'm the sh*t or anything, because I knew quite well what I was getting myself into. I just knew how to maintain the presence, and continue to work hard for what I wanted, and it PAID OFF BIG TIME!

This post has been edited by coden4fun: 26 December 2010 - 12:55 AM

[moopet]

I've decided to miss out the middle of this conversation. It's too weird.
Anyway, back regarding the difference between paycheck work and hobby work - I remember being trapped not having commercial experience too. Unfortunately, HR departments are generally the bane of a candidate's existence. Second only to recruitment agents.
They unfortunately have a bunch of ticky boxes that you have to fill, and there are only a couple of ways around that.
I remember applying for a job that wanted recent graduates, by tweaking my CV so I only listed the most recent job and not mentioning my age.
I also applied for plenty of jobs where they said they wanted a 2:1 degree or above, and I missed off the grade of my degree on my application so I would get past that stage.
That's about as far as I'd go with misleading them. I'd fess up in the technical interviews, and you know what? Nobody would care.

Note: Do not lie in your technical interview. Specifically, do not claim to know technology X, when you don't. If the company's any good at all, you'll be shown the door.


There's a game you have to play to get your CV to the right people. Like, at the moment my company is looking for a new developer. We received over 40 applications the first day the job went out there, and they're still flooding in. We have to throw out the majority of those CVs after just a glance, because we don't have the time to read them all. It's unfair, and we try to be equal-opportunities unfair, but it's the way life is.

HR departments are there for two things in your life: sorting out pay disputes and stopping you from being hired.
If you lack commercial experience, my number one tip for you is: apply for a small company that doesn't have an HR department. Apply directly, send them your CV pro-actively* and tell them you like their company and wonder if they have any openings coming up. There's a good chance your letter or email will be read by one of the technical staff who can actually tell Java from Javascript. You might end up in a pokey little office with no healthcare plan or promotion prospects, but it's still doing what you want.


* I promise to never use that phrase again.

This post has been edited by moopet: 26 December 2010 - 03:57 AM

[LFO]

I would like to thank everyone's input on this matter so far. I've been researching into freelancing. Mainly the sites that were presented in one of the forums on this site. I'm also looking into local companies that would help me out in the ongoing process to get my degree. In all honesty I think I'm going to take Lordofduct's advice and see if I can't earn a little experience while I'm working to get back into college. I know this stuff. I'm no stranger to problem solving and no amateur to programming, I'm just new to the field. Let's see how far these legs will take me.

Also Thank you to Moopet. I'll try to see if I can't find a small business to see if they would give me the opportunity that larger companies wouldn't. It's actually a smart idea because I'm really good at the interviews since I have been practicing them since I was 14. My father use to be that guy on the other side of the desk.

To Coden4fun, I actually understand where your coming from. I always plan to strive for the best and where something like confidence in yourself and your abilities come into play. I still haven't the experience you have. I have only worked on school projects where it's 2 months to get in a basic program and not an intricate programs with problems that you'll run into at the worst possible time. I have not waiver on my skills, if I say I can do it I say it. Still I'm sure they'll be able to detect someone with no work experience in the field.

I know this post is long. What can I say I like to be thorough, to everyone else that has posted in my topic that I did not comment on. I have read all the comments and thank you for them. As for now I hope for the best and will try my hand at freelance.

This post has been edited by LFO: 28 December 2010 - 09:42 AM