[modi123_1]

Stray thought for the moment - I wonder if these kiddos are "trying" to be programmers because that is *expected* of this "tech savey" generation? It maybe an issue where they are plodding along, pseudo-fulfilling their label, and really don't like it (or care for it) at all. The only way to keep up the myth is to lie, cheat, and steal chunks of code thus using the internet to prop up a label they are too apathetic to shake off to forge their own paths. They become the lowest common denominator for developers, but what they do looks like magic to parents with rose-colored glasses.

[Kilorn]

modi123_1 brings up a point that makes me love the policies of this website. It seems to me that far too many people have the idea in their head that there's no point in trying since everything they'll ever need is already posted somewhere on the internet, or if it isn't, they can just ask others to do the work for them while they take credit. There are even sites out there where you can pay for someone to do your homework for you from just about any subject out there. Nobody wants to work to earn anything anymore. It seems that everyone expects the good life to just be handed over to them because they deserve it just by being alive. Growing up in a poor household taught me the benefits of earning what you've been given. Or maybe I should rephrase that, if you're earning it, then you haven't been "given" anything.

[hookiethe1]

It's a change that's an undesired side effect of the technology we all love. Try and find a 15 year old who can:

Remember a phone number
Read a map
Read an analog clock
Look something up in an encyclopedia
Perform fractional arithmetic without a calculator
Spell and/or punctuate

Kids aren't learning how to do things anymore, they're learning how to make machines do things for them.

[Curtis Rutland]

I've often speculated that the reason we see so many developers that obviously don't care to be developers is because it's a booming industry in certain third world countries. People don't go into it because it's something they want to do, it's because it's something that will give them a decent paycheck and a job.

But I don't think it's something that just anyone can learn, just like engineering or business for that matter. You have certain personality types that you are born with or learn early that make you who you are. Some people will simply never be good businessmen. They're not good at networking, or they can't manage money, or anything like that. In the same way, some people aren't going to be good programmers. They lack logic, or patience, or puzzle solving skills, or whatever.

But when certain foreign schools are pumping CS grads out like a factory, it's easy to say "look at those guys. They make a living. I'll do what they do." And the schools oblige, sliding them along to pass and make their completion rate look good.

So it may be parental pressure, or it just may be the attractiveness of the job. But for whatever reason, the industry is filling up with "I don't give a shit" programmers. Ones that take no pride in their work; ones that will never research anything they don't have to...in short, the kind of people we hate to help here.

[lordofduct]

Sergio Tapia, on 27 December 2010 - 06:47 PM, said:

insertAlias, on 27 December 2010 - 09:31 PM, said:

Sergio, I agree to an extent. I rarely need to use any higher math in anything I do, since I write business applications. But those times I have actually had to use it, I was damn glad I knew how.

Sometimes it's not even higher math. Just knowing how to use modulus is important, but damned if some "programmers" don't even know what it means!

If I ever encounter a programmer that doesn't know what modulus is, I will slap him with both hands.

And see there lies a problem... modulus is a higher concept than College Algebra (for nearly all schools that is, one usually takes algebra before discrete arithmetic).

Math is an accumulative learning experience. The studies of the years prior will be applied to all future learning. You do not leave one math study practiced and knowledged in it, you will be practicing and experiencing it in all future math studies. You will never master level 1 of math until you've gotten to level 5 (you won't fully comprehend algebra, until you've done trig and calculus 1 thru 3, and even then you probably still haven't mastered it).

I guarantee you need mathematics for programming. You probably don't see that you use it. Yes you probably haven't had to find the orthogonal vector to the tangent of a curve in 3 space since Caluculs 3, nor have you had to locate the asymptote of a reducing function, nor resolve the acceleration of some object moving through space given its trajectory. The specifics don't come up that often in day to day life... even the simple stuff like the quadratic equation and the pythagorean theorem. Only randomly on occasion may it come up depending the code you're writing, or even other tasks outside of programming. I end up needing these things only occasionally, like I brought back a lot of trig and geometry the other day hanging my first door ever on my own (I had always had assistance before).

But that's not what I'm talking about... the concepts on the other hand. The abstraction and problem solving techniques are unique to math. You aren't taught this quantifiable level of problem solving in any other study out there. History requires route memorization. English usually has no rhyme or reason... well it has rhyme, and that's about it. Science has some structure, but it's a structure of test, test, and test again... keep on testing until it either fails or you've run out of subjects to test.

Math actually quantifies and reduces your attempts, a process that programming requires. Oh yeah you can get by without the skills of math, but you'll suffer for it. I guarantee the ideas and abstraction you learned in Calculus and Algebra assist daily. To be able to observe an algebraic function as a single variable and apply that to a curve has stretched your brain to really comprehend the abstractions in programming. Today it may seem simple, because you've done it so many times.

And yes you can learn to abstract and discretely solve problems without the math, given enough practice. But I always suggest (note I suggest) to learn math first. It'll get you all ready for a ton of ideas, AND it has the added benefit of assisting you in other studies as well. Math can be reapplied to all sorts of studies.

[Kilorn]

I agree with you completely, hookiethe1. Another reason I wish the application process for all colleges were tougher. Make the students earn the right to go to college through hard work. Require testing that really pushes the applicant and see if they have the determination and the drive to actually earn the degree rather than just coast through the program to get the degree at the end.

[Kilorn]

insertAlias, on 28 December 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

I've often speculated that the reason we see so many developers that obviously don't care to be developers is because it's a booming industry in certain third world countries. People don't go into it because it's something they want to do, it's because it's something that will give them a decent paycheck and a job.

But I don't think it's something that just anyone can learn, just like engineering or business for that matter. You have certain personality types that you are born with or learn early that make you who you are. Some people will simply never be good businessmen. They're not good at networking, or they can't manage money, or anything like that. In the same way, some people aren't going to be good programmers. They lack logic, or patience, or puzzle solving skills, or whatever.

But when certain foreign schools are pumping CS grads out like a factory, it's easy to say "look at those guys. They make a living. I'll do what they do." And the schools oblige, sliding them along to pass and make their completion rate look good.

So it may be parental pressure, or it just may be the attractiveness of the job. But for whatever reason, the industry is filling up with "I don't give a shit" programmers. Ones that take no pride in their work; ones that will never research anything they don't have to...in short, the kind of people we hate to help here.

You and I are on the same page about this issue. As I've said in the past, there are far too many people who are just going through the motions to get a paycheck rather than actually caring about their job and the work they do and their performance suffers for it. The ones who do what they do because it's what they want to do are driven to not just get by, but exceed expectations and you can easily see it in the quality of their work. These people actually take the time to learn things about their field that they might not need to use on the current project, but they realize that it will help them even if it's a few projects down the road before they run into an issue.

Unfortunately it's not just limited to computer science fields either. I've seen it in a lot of other fields where people don't truly care about the job they're performing and they just want to coast through and get the paycheck at the end of the week. In fact, I work with a guy right now that does this and it annoys me. The majority of the day while I'm working hard to do a good job because I love my job and I enjoy the work I do, this guy spends the majority of the day playing games on his iPhone, or looking up mods for first person shooters that he wants to play. Yet because this guy has been working here longer than I have, how I do not know, he makes more money than I do, and the quality of his work, when he does work, is usually substandard.

[lordofduct]

But Kilorn... then where would the colleges get all that tuition money and the loan officers make all those sales???


You know the interview process is bad when they let me through. The year I started college I was so caked up on blow and drunk out of my mind I'm surprised I could have walked. I vomited outside the door to my placement test... and I passed. Yeah underneath all those drugs there was a brain in there waiting to be let out (been clean for years now), but at the time if I was me now and I saw me from then walk through the door to go to my class... I would have beaten him back with a baseball bat. You're not coming in my class damn you!

[Kilorn]

hahaha Glad to hear that you've been clean for years. I too had some wild times before I went to college, but I won't get into that as this isn't the time or place for my sordid tales.

Is it safe to say that there are no more true institutions for higher learning? Have they all been replaced by a business ran by greedy executives who only care about the bottom line? Has the curse of "only doing it for the paycheck" helped in ruining our education system?

[Sergio Tapia]

I find this trend of seeing programmers as some sort of higher intellectual beings kind of troublesome. Just like the accountant works for his paycheck so are there programmers who only do it for the money.

We aren't some sort of secret society where everyone has to love what they do.

Keep this in mind guys, not everyone goes home and writes code after 8 hours of doing that at work.

[lordofduct]

Kilorn, on 28 December 2010 - 07:30 AM, said:

Is it safe to say that there are no more true institutions for higher learning? Have they all been replaced by a business ran by greedy executives who only care about the bottom line? Has the curse of "only doing it for the paycheck" helped in ruining our education system?

The cynic in me says of course.

The optimist in me says that the cynic in me is only focusing on the bad. And that you must take the bad with the good.

The anarchist in me says, fuck it, lets go have a drink and talk philosophy.

[Kilorn]

haha I like the way you think, lordofduct. Perhaps it's a little too easy to focus on the negative things, but then again, the heater isn't working where I work and it's below freezing outside here today and I'm very uncomfortable so maybe I'm a little grouchy.

[NeoTifa]

Well, this country is run by money, and money-minded people. Usually, in my field, they love the classes with a high fail rate because it weeds out all the duds. Unfortunately, the "weeding" classes aren't necessarily because the material is hard, it's because the professor is incompetent, so truely smart people, like me, get weeded out because they're so confused. I read the book and understood the material, but the profs way of teaching was just so horrid, and the way he worded his questions and lectures... UGH!

My school is a cheap one, though, so they get a lot of their money by pushing by business and nursing majors, while the engies and scientists get raped. x__x

[lordofduct]

this isn't college, but it still makes me laugh.

In high school we had some very lovely teachers that graced our school.



My Chemistry teacher was dyslexic. Ever try to learn the periodic table when the teacher tells you that H8 is a precious metal used commonly to make jewelry... I mean Ag, ooops, sorry.

My girlfriend when in high school had a biology teacher who spoke Creole. Not he spoke both English and Creole... no he spoke Creole, and muttered bits of English when he felt like it.

My American Government teacher had cerebral palsy. It was aggrivating. The man took 3 white boards to spell his damn name. So I read the book at home and spent his class napping. He would poke me for it so one day I stood up: "Yey for you Mr Sah Ree bah paul say... yous gots to bes a teachers. The thing is asshole I can't understand you, you sound like a drunk man yelling from the otherside of the bar. What's that you say? The jews sew a ranch? Oh the judicial branch. Fuck you if my education suffers because some asshole thinks he has the right to do what ever the fuck he damn well pleases! But oh no, this is America... so have your job, and I'll have my nap time."

(of course, not verbatim... but pretty much)

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 28 December 2010 - 09:16 AM

[Kilorn]

All I can really say to that is wow...

The dyslexic chem teacher is just horrible. How can anyone with a learning disability be allowed to teach others?