[xclite]

I'd recommend C# as well. It has good syntax, it's modern, people are using it, and it's a short skip to game programming. It's also an easier way to see concrete, neat results from little projects using .NET.

[lordofduct]

xclite, on 09 March 2011 - 09:41 AM, said:

I'd recommend C# as well. It has good syntax, it's modern, people are using it, and it's a short skip to game programming. It's also an easier way to see concrete, neat results from little projects using .NET.

modern is a big thing!

One thing I have noticed in some of these classes are that these kids are being taught languages not in use anywhere except for in these class rooms.

Like Pascal, QBasic, COBOL; I hardly ever hear of these... yeah I bet there are a sprinkling of some people using it professionally for something (I do hear about COBOL randomly). We actually use Pick/BASIC here at my work. But for the most part they aren't in high demand, let alone a low demand, languages... when I was interviewed I was never asked about Pick/BASIC, and was hired under the understanding that my background in C# and C++, that I could pretty much learn Pick/BASIC in no time at all.

One can say C# or a .Net language is restricting because it's .Net. But some of these old languages are pretty restricting in that they aren't really in use. Which I guess the debate of "it's effective for teaching theory" can come into play. But that theory can be easily taught in many modern languages, and actually can be taught in a more effective manner. The students can within a semester learn a set of principles, then apply them to an application that resembles modern software they see on a daily basis.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 09 March 2011 - 10:05 AM

[Sergio Tapia]

NoBrain, on 09 March 2011 - 09:49 AM, said:

I would say VB its easier then C like syntax because no ; at the end etc other things that makes it more english like typing example:

'VB'
For i As Integer = 0 To 10
'Do some stuff'
Next i

If you have none programming understanding the VB syntax will help you get the basics (after all its visual basic) pretty much fast and easy. Even if that i start programming on Pascal i still hate Begin End block type of thing. My opinion though

The problem I have with this is you're instantly putting your brain in a vice that's very difficult to be free of. Once you use VB.Net, your mind is permanently branded. You'll forget to use semicolons in other languages (which lets face it, most languages use!), you'll have problems declaring variables, and more.

I don't recommend this language as a start language.

@OP: I started learning about programming using C# my very first year of university. The first year about 70% of the students failed. Second year, about half fell off. Third year, we started out as 50~ people and at the end of the year only 40~ made it.

How does this reflect on the language? I'm not entirely sure. :S I think it has more to do with the underlying thinking and problem solving skills. I mean, I've seen people who don't have a clue about code organization, or what to call their methods, or how to write a method that doesn't look confusing.

It's a rough career all of us have chosen, that's for sure.

My vote would have to go to Python. Why?

A) My brother is learning Python, right now. He has never coded a single line of code in his life, and only became aware code existed three weeks ago when I bought him the Head First Programming book which uses Python as the language of choice. He's doing fine and has asked me questions about the syntax, which is always a good sign. It seems he's figuring it out.

B ) It focuses on the problem, and not on the underlying processes needed to solve that problem. In a sense you give the students a birds eye view of the entire solution. No problems, like "I forgot a curly brace in line 54"

This post has been edited by Sergio Tapia: 09 March 2011 - 10:43 AM

[lordofduct]

I would like to give a nod to Python, it is stupid simple. I mean like seriously easy to pick up, learn, and make some cool stuff in.

My only complaint is the use of indentation in the language... it can make editing slow and I end up putting comment lines at the end of blocks just in case.

[xclite]

I found Python infuriating. It's really good at getting in your way if you want to do anything differently.

[NeoTifa]

I think Java is a pretty cool guy. tI has built in graphics and doesn't afraid of anything.

In all seriousness, I think Java balances the aspcts of top level and low level just right for beginners. It takes most of the low level functionality away (or at least covers it up) so it makes it easier to ease n00bs into programming, but at the same time forces OOP concepts, libraries, and just enough low levelness to get them introduced to how a computer works under the hood. This is opposed to VB or some gay shit that is too high level, or C which is too low level.

[Sergio Tapia]

'gayshit'



It's no secret how I feel about Java and it's monstrous verbosity. That's probably the only reason why I'd recommend against it.

[nathanpc]

I've started with BASIC, which gives a lot of compression about programming, then I moved to Pascal later, but for sure the best language to start is BASIC, it's simple and easy to learn and on older times you could make awesome stuff for Commodore and DOS using just BASIC which motivated a lot of people to start developing.

[bflosabre91]

i agree with vb being great for beginners. I dont think just because thats what you start out with that you won't be able to get used to c style syntax. VB is easy to pick up and create something with little effort, to keep you motivated in learning it. I guess the same could be said with c# but with little experience, vb would be easier to read. But thats not to say VB is an easy language.

I just remember when i first started with vb close to 8 or so years ago, it was nice to be able to create a form and have it visually display with very little effort. Then a few years later i took some c++ and remember having the hardest time just to get the stuff to compile to just display some crap in a dos prompt. But working with VB at first kept me interested and learning it pretty well now makes it easy for me to read c# and other languages without much difficulty.

[Patrunjel]

I personaly recommend C++ . Even though i don't know any other language, i would recommend C++ . Why? Because when i got into C++ i was a beginner too.I was scared and stuff, hearing about C++ like a crazy language for gurus and stuff. As a beginner, i found certain things difficult (like file I/O and dynamic allocation), but i guess this happens in any language.
Anyways, the point is that C++ isn't as ugly as it seems, and, quite the opposite, i find it verry fascinating. I don't know if for any language it is like this, but C++ has tons of APIs and you can do loads of stuff with it (obviously, sometimes you could do the certain thing with another language 10 times more easyer and faster but...what's the point in that? ) )
And, as HTML makes you learn loads of tags (at least this is how i see it), C++ makes you think.Think hard.And, also, a nice thing in C++ is that you can embed assembly (even though i never did it, i don't have a clue on assembly, but the things that you can do with asm are mind boggling)

This post has been edited by Patrunjel: 09 March 2011 - 11:41 AM

[lordofduct]

bflosabre91, on 09 March 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

I just remember when i first started with vb close to 8 or so years ago, it was nice to be able to create a form and have it visually display with very little effort. Then a few years later i took some c++ and remember having the hardest time just to get the stuff to compile to just display some crap in a dos prompt. But working with VB at first kept me interested and learning it pretty well now makes it easy for me to read c# and other languages without much difficulty.

I would give the credit of that ease of getting a form up and running to the .Net framework (unless you were talking about VB6). And all the other .Net languages make it nearly as simple.


.Net in general is freakin' easy to get graphical interfaces up and running in windows. It's primarily why it exists, to make it super easy to get graphical interfaces up and running in windows.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 09 March 2011 - 11:48 AM

[5thWall]

My first language was Javascript, but I moved to Java pretty soon after that, and the bulk of my learning about programming came from Java.

For a first language I would recommend using Ruby. It has a nice syntax and lets you focus on solving the problem at hand rather than messing with the language. There is lots of documentation and support out there for it. It also has elements of both OO and Functional programming which are both accessible, so it wouldn't be a huge paradigm shift if they wanted to learn another oo or functional language later.

[bflosabre91]

lordofduct, on 09 March 2011 - 01:47 PM, said:

bflosabre91, on 09 March 2011 - 11:29 AM, said:

I just remember when i first started with vb close to 8 or so years ago, it was nice to be able to create a form and have it visually display with very little effort. Then a few years later i took some c++ and remember having the hardest time just to get the stuff to compile to just display some crap in a dos prompt. But working with VB at first kept me interested and learning it pretty well now makes it easy for me to read c# and other languages without much difficulty.

I would give the credit of that ease of getting a form up and running to the .Net framework (unless you were talking about VB6). And all the other .Net languages make it nearly as simple.


.Net in general is freakin' easy to get graphical interfaces up and running in windows. It's primarily why it exists, to make it super easy to get graphical interfaces up and running in windows.

agreed, and i guess that what i was implying when i said

Quote

VB is easy to pick up and create something with little effort, to keep you motivated in learning it. I guess the same could be said with c# but with little experience, vb would be easier to read.

[Sergio Tapia]

5thWall, on 09 March 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

My first language was Javascript, but I moved to Java pretty soon after that, and the bulk of my learning about programming came from Java.

For a first language I would recommend using Ruby. It has a nice syntax and lets you focus on solving the problem at hand rather than messing with the language. There is lots of documentation and support out there for it. It also has elements of both OO and Functional programming which are both accessible, so it wouldn't be a huge paradigm shift if they wanted to learn another oo or functional language later.

I think Ruby moves to fast for a newbie. It's the equivalent of building your foundations on sand. I love Ruby, but it's not suitable for a beginner in my opinion.

[:(D):(P):]

I started out in school also with Ready To program that uses integrated java witch is very simple and easy to use and you can learn it to yourself basically with just the java.api