[dorknexus]

Looks like conceal carry on a university campus is now legal in Texas. See a referencing news article here:
http://www.texastrib...r-campus-carry/

I have heard a few different viewpoints on this one. I've heard arguments that school shootings/massacres could be easily prevented if students and faculty were armed. I've also heard arguments that it will increase the number of gun related accidents and cause more harm than good in the long run.

I'm interested to hear what your viewpoints are on the implications of allowing the concealed carry of firearms on a school campus, and just concealed carry in general.

If you are a student, do you find the prospect that someone near you on campus is packing heat comforting or frightening?

This post has been edited by Dark_Nexus: 10 May 2011 - 11:03 AM

[supersloth]

just more wannabe john mclains who will shit their pants when push comes to shove.

[xclite]

Dark_Nexus, on 10 May 2011 - 02:02 PM, said:

I have heard a few different viewpoints on this one. I've heard arguments that school shootings/massacres could be easily prevented if students and faculty were armed.

Prevented? No. The number of victims altered? Maybe. Not necessarily decreased.

[tlhIn`toq]

I'm from AZ where open and concealed carry is legal without a permit.
We don't even have to register our weapons.

Yet you don't see an increase in gun related crime when comparing to states with strict gun policy, like california.

I think that demonstrates that an armed populous doesn't mean a bunch of crazy people.

Those crazy enough to go clock-tower-sniper don't really give a rats ass about what the law says. Once you've made the decision to go shoot up your school I don't think you stop because of a sudden realization:

"Oh, I can't carry concealed on the school grounds. I guess I can't go massacre the student body and teaching staff after all. I guess I'll get a taco instead."

[supersloth]

remember that time someone shot jared loughner and saved all those peoples lives? good times.

[xclite]

tlhIn`toq, on 10 May 2011 - 02:32 PM, said:

I'm from AZ where open and concealed carry is legal without a permit.
We don't even have to register our weapons.

Yet you don't see an increase in gun related crime when comparing to states with strict gun policy, like california.
I think that demonstrates that an armed populous doesn't mean a bunch of crazy people.

I think the set of all gun related crime on Arizona campuses was too small to show a trend, but if you didn't see a decrease, either, this comment has no impact.

Quote

Those crazy enough to go clock-tower-sniper don't really give a rats ass about what the law says. Once you've made the decision to go shoot up your school I don't think you stop because of a sudden realization:

"Oh, I can't carry concealed on the school grounds. I guess I can't go massacre the student body and teaching staff after all. I guess I'll get a taco instead."

The argument generally isn't that those with concealed permits are crazies, but that those with guns will be more likely to use them than if, I don't know, they didn't have them.

The crazies also don't stop because "Oh, somebody might have a gun and kill me once I start shooting."

This post has been edited by xclite: 10 May 2011 - 11:49 AM

[Sergio Tapia]

I don't think the amount of gun related incidents will fluctuate either way. From head says it's a good idea, but my heart is scared shitless to imagine the college types carrying guns.

As long as the people carrying the guns are properly trained I don't think it will cause issues with the non-armed people.

[codeprada]

supersloth, on 10 May 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

remember that time someone shot jared loughner and saved all those peoples lives? good times.

Yep good times...but what's stopping those same legal gun holders from starting a massacre of their own? They're going to regret that bill. The last thing any country needs is it's children becoming desensitized to guns like if they were just normal pen and paper.

[hookiethe1]

I think it's a bad, bad idea. The implication is not that carrying a gun makes you a crazy, but that if you flip out and happen to have a gun in your pocket you can do a lot more damage. It's probably an impossible number to determine, but I imagine that there are a lot of people who would go on a shooting spree, but cool down on their way to getting a gun. I used to live next door to a forensic detective and he was telling me one time about the disturbing number of police suicides. I asked him if being a cop was really that bad and he said no, but if you do get depressed there's a gun hanging from your belt.
The average person loses their temper all the time, but the worst they can do is kick a garbage can or punch their steering wheel, if everybody is armed it's just increasing the potential for destruction.

[tlhIn`toq]

I wasn't talking about campus. I was talking about the entire state. And that is a large enough data sample to show a trend.

I dont' think they are more *likely* to use them because one only uses a gun in a situation that requires it. So the likely hood of a nut walking onto the campus to do damage doesn't change just because the responsible people are armed. Those with guns are more *capable* of using them. Yep. One can only hope.
When the nutjob with a gun or a knife or a homemade bomb comes to my WalMart or campus and starts shooting I'd rather have 500 sane people with guns than with chapstick. Someone will drop the crazy guy.

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 10 May 2011 - 11:58 AM

[xclite]

tlhIn`toq, on 10 May 2011 - 02:56 PM, said:

I wasn't talking about campus. I was talking about the entire state. And that is a large enough data sample to show a trend.

And are there fewer gun related deaths? If not, then you've made no argument.

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I dont' think they are more *likely* to use them because one only uses a gun in a situation that requires it.

That they think requires it - you act like people are always rational and in complete control.

Quote

So the likely hood of a nut walking onto the campus to do damage doesn't change just because the responsible people are armed.

I agree.

Quote

Those with guns are more *capable* of using them. Yep. One can only hope.
When the nutjob with a gun or a knife or a homemade bomb comes to my WalMart or campus and starts shooting I'd rather have 500 sane people with guns than with chapstick. Someone will drop the crazy guy.

And on any other day, I'd really rather just the police officers on my campus had guns. Unfortunately we can't choose.

codeprada, on 10 May 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

supersloth, on 10 May 2011 - 02:38 PM, said:

remember that time someone shot jared loughner and saved all those peoples lives? good times.

Yep good times...but what's stopping those same legal gun holders from starting a massacre of their own? They're going to regret that bill. The last thing any country needs is it's children becoming desensitized to guns like if they were just normal pen and paper.

You missed the point - nobody shot him. He shot several people in a state where concealed carry is permitted, and was stopped by physical force and numbers rather than return fire.

[codeprada]

xclite, on 10 May 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

You missed the point - nobody shot him. He shot several people in a state where concealed carry is permitted, and was stopped by physical force and numbers rather than return fire.

So basically legalizing concealed carry won't make a difference.

[tlhIn`toq]

xclite, on 10 May 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

The last thing any country needs is it's children becoming desensitized to guns like if they were just normal pen and paper.

Careful with that pen, you could put someone's eye out.

Again, look at examples in open-carry states like AZ where a portion of the population does carry all the time. It is not at all uncommon to see 4-7 people at WalMart with their sidearm on and visible. Nobody thinks twice about it. Might as well be their cell phone on their hip. And why should it be anything different? I can kill you with a gun. I can kill you with a pencil or my car. We don't raise kids to be scared of cars. We raise them to respect what they can do. A gun, a pocket knife, the electrical outlets, an industrial machine... its no different.

xclite, on 10 May 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

The last thing any country needs is it's children becoming desensitized to guns like if they were just normal pen and paper.

Drive by's happen every day in cities like LA and Chicago where gun control is strict. Do you think these kids aren't already desensitized to it? Wake up.

Wasn't this the exact situation, in this very country, from the 1700's to about 1900?
Everyone had a musket, or a Winchester repeater, or Colt Peacemaker for the last 200 years.

And during that time the "wild west" wasn't really so wild. A crime wave was Billy the Kid who became famous for some 20-ish bank robberies over his entire career. Today that doesn't make page 5 of the newspaper unless they all happen at the same time.

The reality then was that you had to be a special kind of stupid to try to rape a woman who had a .45 - when there were 200 other people around with them. At a time when justice was carried out swiftly by a rope beyond the courthouse.
"yes, we all saw him John Citizen. There were 20 witnesses."
"Ok. Stretch 'em by the neck until he quits kickin'"
No 25 years of appeals while sucking up $75,000/year in jail of taxpayer dollars.

It really wasn't until people tried making society all civilized did things go to hell. Look at Los Angeles where the average citizen doesn't have a gun but all gangs are packin'.

Personally, I'd rather have guns on honest citizens and for kids to see what happens to criminals as a warning to keep on the straight and narrow. Hiding away the ugly truth of guns, crimes and prison has only bred a generation that doesn't respect or fear any of them.

[no2pencil]

My prediction :

The number of accidental fatalities will increase.
The number of School shooting victims will decrease.

Who wins?

[xclite]

tlhIn`toq, on 10 May 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

xclite, on 10 May 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

The last thing any country needs is it's children becoming desensitized to guns like if they were just normal pen and paper.

Careful with that pen, you could put someone's eye out.

Just saying it wasn't my quote =p

Quote

xclite, on 10 May 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

The last thing any country needs is it's children becoming desensitized to guns like if they were just normal pen and paper.

Also not my quote.

Quote

Drive by's happen every day in cities like LA and Chicago where gun control is strict. Do you think these kids aren't already desensitized to it? Wake up.

Wasn't this the exact situation, in this very country, from the 1700's to about 1900?
Everyone had a musket, or a Winchester repeater, or Colt Peacemaker for the last 200 years.

And during that time the "wild west" wasn't really so wild. A crime wave was Billy the Kid who became famous for some 20-ish bank robberies over his entire career. Today that doesn't make page 5 of the newspaper unless they all happen at the same time.

The reality then was that you had to be a special kind of stupid to try to rape a woman who had a .45 - when there were 200 other people around with them. At a time when justice was carried out swiftly by a rope beyond the courthouse.
"yes, we all saw him John Citizen. There were 20 witnesses."
"Ok. Stretch 'em by the neck until he quits kickin'"
No 25 years of appeals while sucking up $75,000/year in jail of taxpayer dollars.

It really wasn't until people tried making society all civilized did things go to hell. Look at Los Angeles where the average citizen doesn't have a gun but all gangs are packin'.

Personally, I'd rather have guns on honest citizens and for kids to see what happens to criminals as a warning to keep on the straight and narrow. Hiding away the ugly truth of guns, crimes and prison has only bred a generation that doesn't respect or fear any of them.

I'm definitely not an advocate of banning guns, because it is certainly true that the honest citizen is the only one who won't have a gun. That doesn't mean I'm a fan of them being allowed on my campus, which is the topic at hand.