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#1 AdamSpeight2008  Icon User is offline

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How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Post icon  Posted 15 August 2011 - 11:43 PM

I stumbled across this blog post by Gus Class about How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn
Link to blog article

What other things do think Developers should be expected to learn.

This post has been edited by AdamSpeight2008: 15 August 2011 - 11:43 PM

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Replies To: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

#2 ccubed  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 12:53 AM

I don't know about the article or the two people on the comments, but i've never actually thought the content for the MSDN archives was bad or scarce. It describes what something does without an overly time consuming and unnecessary explanation of how it works. Sure, there will be people who want to know how something does what it does, but at the end of the day, cout still prints to the standard output handle and cin still reads it from it. Do I personally care why it does that? not particularly. Would I find it interesting to know? Yes. Does it stop me from coding if I don't? No.

However, I am not saying having that explanation of how is bad either. If someone didn't know what the standard output handle is or how to change it, they would find themselves in a pickle when the needed cout to say, print content to another specific program or handle. In fact, if there was no documentation on what Handles are, then we'd really be screwed.

So in essence, I think that if they're complaining about the MSDN - though some content truly is missing, as in, just not there (I'm looking at you defining SAPI speech rules) - then they're missing the point and/or not reading it at all.
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#3 smohd  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 04:14 AM

The big issue is how MS expects Developers to learn the Documentation:

Quote

The following is how Microsoft expects developers to use the documentation given the structure of our content and how we learn internally:

1) Read the About content to learn the architecture of an API
2) Determine your scenarios and find them in the Programming Guide or download a sample from/with the SDK and get started with that
3) If developers encounter challenges or need details of an API, they can click the reference to get deeper information about a specific API

Also:

Quote

Some pro tips for learning
-Find the “Programming Guide”
-Avoid reference topics if you are getting started
-Check the See Also section for links to more useful content


It is true(may be) that some of the docs does not include enough information, but it is also true that many of documentation readers do not know how to read them.
And that is why that article was written to show how we are expected to read, and also our mentors here put this to elaborate.

Going to the original question: "What other things do think Developers should be expected to learn"
- After reading docs, better to go to the code examples and see how things are implemented
- It will be better if MSDN have a tutorial for every class to show how its methods are used(like what Oracle did)
- Also there are done example projects from Code Projects and others that explains how to use APIs
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#4 Sergio Tapia  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:05 AM

Quote

instead of all this horseshit, microsoft


BAH HAHA HAHA. That made me burst out laughing in the office. Tact peolpe, being online doesn't give you the right to become a dick.

Personally, I find the MSDN website well written and organized.
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#5 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:09 AM

The one thing I find lacking on the MSDN is a good search.
Maybe its just me, but using the search on the MSDN page doesn't find what I am looking for, near as well as Google. Especially if I don't already know the EXACT namespace and method to search for.
If you search for string.format then you get the right page. But if I already know enough to search for the exact method, then I probably don't need to. When you don't know this and you are using more general English terms trying to zero in on the right stuff then MSDN search (Bing) doesn't do near as well. If you search for format text on google and the same terms on the MSDN page itself, you get vastly different hits.

Spoiler


Not to mention that if you search on Google you get lots of other resources, such as DIC and other forums with tutorials and explanations.
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#6 Mila  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:14 AM

View PostSergio Tapia, on 16 August 2011 - 08:05 AM, said:

Personally, I find the MSDN website well written and organized.


I started out programming java in high school, then started learning C/C++/C#/those other .NET languages in university. Coming from the Java API and javadoc, I found MSDN spartan and entirely unhelpful. I ended up using other websites for reference, mostly, because I just couldn't find any information that I actually needed on MSDN, and when I did, it simply was not enough.
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#7 hookiethe1  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:39 AM

Most of the time I'm pretty happy with what I find on MSDN, considering that most of the time a Google search ends up there anyway. But I have been frustrated by empty or half assed pages, particularly when there is a complete lack of code examples. For me, there is no better explanation of a bit of syntax than to see it in use. I doubt there is a more complete reference than MSDN.
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#8 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 10:48 AM

View Posthookiethe1, on 16 August 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

For me, there is no better explanation of a bit of syntax than to see it in use.


This is what I love about C# Recipe books. Code examples from professionals that give not only code snippets but explanations of approach concepts as to *why* things are done a given way.
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#9 milleja46  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 04:04 PM

All i have to say is their guides is the reason i gave up on languages(or their versions of) ones based on the .net specification not good documentation and really the more i think about it, a dev needs to know how things work, why it works, and how to put it too good use(and make their own uis not have them generated) something i personally don't think msdn does well. I'll recommend any language over ones by ms just so they will get some better experience. Granted i'm still working on trying to learn some of the stuff i've mentioned but i should've done it in the first place to get some good experience and be a better dev than i could've made myself with the ms stuff plus languages outside theirs usually have better support and support more operating systems
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#10 alias120  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:13 PM

90% of the time, MSDN provides me with exactly what I am looking for. A straight to the point overview of the particular subject. I use MSDN not because I am looking for a tutorial, but a reference. As reference material, MSDN is a great resource. If there is a particular topic that MSDN does not cover in enough detail, I have the rest of the internet and my own collection of reading material to dig through. MSDN may not be perfect, but it serves its purpose very well.
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#11 farrell2k  Icon User is online

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:48 PM

It took for a while to learn the basics of Java. Brefore I did that, I had a hard time deciding which to learn as a first language, Java or c#. I can say with absolute certainty that the Javadocs are filled with much more content than the msdn docs, and that was a big part of my decision to embrace Java. The .net documentations seems so empty.
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#12 milleja46  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:06 AM

alias120 said:

90% of the time, MSDN provides me with exactly what I am looking for. A straight to the point overview of the particular subject. I use MSDN not because I am looking for a tutorial, but a reference. As reference material, MSDN is a great resource. If there is a particular topic that MSDN does not cover in enough detail, I have the rest of the internet and my own collection of reading material to dig through. MSDN may not be perfect, but it serves its purpose very well.


See that's the exact reason i wouldn't even use it, it's a reference instead of a real explanation, and most of the time i need a explanation because i've forgotten how to use it right and i don't understand the msdn version at all. There are plenty of better guides here(though i don't learn the languages mentioned on msdn anyway)

View Postfarrell2k, on 16 August 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

It took for a while to learn the basics of Java. Brefore I did that, I had a hard time deciding which to learn as a first language, Java or c#. I can say with absolute certainty that the Javadocs are filled with much more content than the msdn docs, and that was a big part of my decision to embrace Java. The .net documentations seems so empty.

Now i have someone who feels the same way i do. It is too empty it tellls you of some cases of how to use it and maybe what it does but doesn't give a full understanding of how or when to use the code especially in cases similar to what people on here are using them for ;)
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#13 battlesmith  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 05 November 2012 - 03:20 PM

I understand MSDN search is not as good as Google. Neither, Bing search too if I can say. But, for me it makes sense to prefix the language and search for resources in MSDN. For example, if you search for "C# string format" it tends to give you results a little relevant, because msdn has plethora of information. It works well for me at the least! :)
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#14 marty617  Icon User is offline

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Re: How Microsoft Expects Developers To Learn

Posted 05 November 2012 - 04:00 PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. My only complaint about MSDN is the seemingly random inclusion of samples.
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