[sithius92]

Isn't it up the the people anyway? Sure, the government needs to enact laws and regulations, but it is the duty of the people to regulate the government. To me, it seems people are content with their elected officials dictating what's what. The people give up their power to politicians and then complain when the politicians screw them over.

A politician's biggest enemy is a well-informed citizen.

[Sergio Tapia]

WolfCoder, on 22 September 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

Sergio Tapia, on 22 September 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

My daddy always used to say, never discuss politics or religion with friends. Sagely advice.

Yeah because trying to convince others of things is completely stupid, we should not talk to one another and let the government do all the discussing among our peers for us.

You assume people want convincing.

[Craig328]

lordofduct, on 22 September 2011 - 10:15 AM, said:

Craig basically suggested most of the things I was going to...

Either Craig's a hippy, or people are wrong to call me a super-liberal.

Well, I won't go so far as to say I'm a hippy. Most of what I believe in is actually rather conservative...except that that term has been hijacked by a certain group of folks who've managed to destroy its meaning and supplant it with their own definition. Kind of like say back 50 years ago or so if you encountered a buddy of yours and he's happy about something...and you were to remark on this condition by saying something like "well, aren't you looking rather gay today"...he wouldn't have taken near the offense then he might today.

I'm rather fiscally conservative but believe we need certain social programs, should have smaller government but not non-existent government, need the world's strongest military but not so much that we're regarded as the world's policeman and so on. Where I tend to differ with most "conservatives" is that I believe that government should not be involved in forming social policy. To that end, I don't give much a damn about gay marriage, the abortion debate and especially religion...inasmuch as politics are involved...and really dislike it in that Republicans in particular use these social issues as a litmus test for validity as a candidate. I really hate how you can't be considered a viable candidate as a Republican unless you kiss the ass of the evangelical fringe of the party.

Anyway, all the suggestions I made point in one direction: make America financially stronger. The comments about renewable energy: if anyone DOESN'T realize that the first major industrialized country to convert their economy onto a renewable energy footing WILL own a huge competitive advantage isn't paying close enough attention.

If the United States were to master renewable energy such that we DON'T care about Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq, etc...so that we CAN reduce our military and erase our trade deficit (whose imbalance is almost entirely due to energy imports)...we'd be in a much better position than today. It'd be the creation of an entirely new industry, employing large numbers of people needing superior education, benefiting the environment and reducing our security concerns. It's entirely a win-win-win situation...and Congress and the President are squabbling over who can speechify on TV when.

So, I'm all for environmentally friendly heavy industry. Which makes me...a hippy baron?

[supersloth]

godamn your two posts in this thread gave me such a boner.

[lordofduct]

i wasn't calling you a hippy actually.

I was saying people are jack-asses for calling me super-liberal because I believe in some social nets. But actually I'm more financially conservative but with liberal beliefs about how to treat one another.

[Craig328]

Good lord...I think Satan just got tagged with a snowball.

[WolfCoder]

Sergio Tapia, on 22 September 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

WolfCoder, on 22 September 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

Sergio Tapia, on 22 September 2011 - 08:25 AM, said:

My daddy always used to say, never discuss politics or religion with friends. Sagely advice.

Yeah because trying to convince others of things is completely stupid, we should not talk to one another and let the government do all the discussing among our peers for us.

You assume people want convincing.

You have to convince them they need convincing.

[Nykc]

The cake is a lie

[Tarkenfire]

Large-scale War.

It thins out populations (mostly the stupider section; smarter people/people who test well are generally assigned to specialized roles in the modern military), and bolsters economies, plus the winner of a war generally uses it as an excuse to wipe out debt it has with the losers.


Well....except for the US...we have a tendency to pay the people who lose wars against us insane amounts of money...

This post has been edited by Tarkenfire: 22 September 2011 - 01:38 PM

[scalt]

Tarkenfire, on 23 September 2011 - 09:37 AM, said:

Large-scale War.

It thins out populations (mostly the stupider section; smarter people/people who test well are generally assigned to specialized roles in the modern military), and bolsters economies, plus the winner of a war generally uses it as an excuse to wipe out debt it has with the losers.


Well....except for the US...we have a tendency to pay the people who lose wars against us insane amounts of money...

I thought the US would have learnt by now that all War does is piss off large chunks of the world's population and creates more problems than it solves, but then again I was saying that back in 2001 and look where THAT ended up.

[farrell2k]

In order to fix the economy, you have to first identify what went wrong.

There are two things that depressed the U.S. economy:

1. The housing market. The 2004 passage of Bush's Zero down-payment initiative, which provided federally backed loans to those with less than perfect credit who could not afford a down payment. Many got 100% financing, and all of the loans were guaranteed by the federal gov't, so banks had no reason NOT to issue the loans. The congressional budget office warned of the potential for a high rate of defaults, and that's exactly what we're seeing now. This was part of Bush's ownership society. It didn't work out so well.

2. The Bush tax cuts. Tax cuts are usually always a good thing, but in this case taxes weren't cut, they were simply shifted. Tax rates were lowered some percentage for everyone across the board, but gov't spending increased. This resulted in the top 2% of earners no longer responsible for a large amount of taxes, and because spending was not cut, the tax burden was simply shifted from the top to the middle. This resulted in less consumer spending, which resulted in fewer sales for just about every company from cars to toys, which resulted in lay-offs and price increases to make up for lost sales, and it is still happening.

To fix this, I would first:

increase taxes on the rich and give all of their tax breaks to the middle class, as middle class spending accounts for 66% of all economic activity. It only makes sense.

then I would end free trade agreements with main outsourcing countries like china and indonesia and put a big tax on their imports, doing everything I can to make a chinese worker expensive.

then I would implement a reasonable, socialized health care system. Not having to worry about a $500k bill for cancer or a stroke will certainly raise consumer confidence. I write this as I pay my $297/mo. health care insurance bill this month...

Oh, and I'd end all of the ridiculous warmongering and cut defense spending.

This post has been edited by farrell2k: 22 September 2011 - 03:32 PM

[AdamSpeight2008]

My Fixes for the UK Economy remove Duty and reduce VAT on Fuel to 10%. (Reducing Transportation cost of goods.)
Impose 75% Fuel Duty on Transport registered outside the UK. Non UK plates on your vehicle 75% duty.

Export Tax at 1%
Import Tax at 51%

To create more in Manufacturing
We currently it seem don't make much on the small stuff on bulk. For example Sheffield where have all the Steel mills and Cutlery works gone?


Internationl Company looking to start up a business / factory in UK. 3 Yrs pay 50% less Tax, provided the money/capital and revenue stays with the UK economy. Fine for not doing this all tax paid at reduce you now owe the full amount + 50%.

Remove the minimum wage
Remove the maximum working hours (Currently 40).Working Time Directive.
Exit the UK

Reduce the amount of burrecratic paperwork. eg. Health & Safety

Remove restrictions on opening hours, so retail sectors can stay open 24-7 every day of the weeek.

Starting up your own business, £2000 at the start, £20000 capital investment if you're still in business after the first year and employ more that starting number of workers.

Insist on installing Fibre To each Home on new builds. Construction of Fibre networks to all uk villages and towns. Not just thus that commercially viable.

Invest in a grade separated rail freight network, opening space on the network for passengers. Instead investing in HS2

Car Pool, registered on particular days of the week, that it will be used to transport more than 2 people to and from work. Pro-rata Tax and Insurane Rebate, eg if it every day you work. 100% tax disc and insurance rebate.

So reduces the about of vehicle on road during rush hours.

This post has been edited by AdamSpeight2008: 22 September 2011 - 04:13 PM

[Craig328]

farrell2k, on 22 September 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

In order to fix the economy, you have to first identify what went wrong.

There are two things that depressed the U.S. economy:

1. The housing market. The 2004 passage of Bush's Zero down-payment initiative, which provided federally backed loans to those with less than perfect credit who could not afford a down payment.

{Insert loud buzz noise indicating a wrong answer here}. Um...no. The housing debacle began when the Housing and Community Development Act of 1992 was enacted...and those were Clinton years. The act did lots of things but the one thing it did more than any other to contribute to the housing bubble bursting was having the fed agree to back loans (via Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac) for what we would call "sub-prime" borrowers. Just so you understand, as soon as Fannie and Freddie were told to start underwriting the greater risk loans, that meant banks could (and were encouraged) to start writing them because the federal government was backing them.

Quote

2. The Bush tax cuts. Tax cuts are usually always a good thing, but in this case taxes weren't cut, they were simply shifted. Tax rates were lowered some percentage for everyone across the board, but gov't spending increased.

Don't need to correct the first sentence because you did it yourself in your second one. Pop quiz time: name a year when government spending DIDN'T increase. The Bush tax cuts pretty much staved off a collapse of western economies for anywhere from 4-5 years right after the market slides after 9/11. If it weren't for the tax cuts, we'd be in year 8 or 9 of Great Depression II: Electric Boogaloo.

Quote

To fix this, I would first:

increase taxes on the rich and give all of their tax breaks to the middle class, as middle class spending accounts for 66% of all economic activity. It only makes sense.

While I'd like to see the citation for the economic activity claim, let's rehash which class it is that starts businesses, expands existing businesses, hires people to work in those businesses and generally contributes positively to the employment rate (read: taxpayers making money they pay taxes on) in this country.

Quote

then I would end free trade agreements with main outsourcing countries like china and indonesia and put a big tax on their imports, doing everything I can to make a chinese worker expensive.

Can't and won't argue that. That we renewed China's MFN trading status the next year after Tiananmen Square should be a source of great shame in this country.

Quote

then I would implement a reasonable, socialized health care system. Not having to worry about a $500k bill for cancer or a stroke will certainly raise consumer confidence. I write this as I pay my $297/mo. health care insurance bill this month...

Way too vague to comment on.

Quote

Oh, and I'd end all of the ridiculous warmongering and cut defense spending.

Agreed. I've said it before: the United States doesn't need 14 carriers and their attendant air groups and support vessels to protect the coasts of the United States. We need them to protect the coasts of South Korea, Taiwan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc. Let those folks foot their own bills for defending themselves...they all can certainly afford it.

This post has been edited by Craig328: 22 September 2011 - 06:44 PM

[Whizzy]

farrell2k, on 22 September 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

In order to fix the economy, you have to first identify what went wrong.

There are two things that depressed the U.S. economy:

1. The housing market. The 2004 passage of Bush's Zero down-payment initiative, ... blah blah blah ... It didn't work out so well.

2. The Bush tax cuts. Tax cuts are usually always a good thing, but in this case ... blah blah blah ... which resulted in lay-offs and price increases to make up for lost sales, and it is still happening.

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHH So before Bush the economy was fan-fuckin-tastic... Now I see the error of my ways.

The economy has been screwed up long before Bush. He may be responsible for walking the mud hole dry, but the mud hole was stomped in the ass of the economy long before he was around. I think (I could be mistaken) Roosevelt started the credit/ debit/ borrowing shit... It was around that era the "national debt" started becoming a household buzz phrase. So every president / congressman since then has a share of the blame, in my humble opinion.

[farrell2k]

Whizzy, on 23 September 2011 - 02:14 AM, said:

farrell2k, on 22 September 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

In order to fix the economy, you have to first identify what went wrong.

There are two things that depressed the U.S. economy:

1. The housing market. The 2004 passage of Bush's Zero down-payment initiative, ... blah blah blah ... It didn't work out so well.

2. The Bush tax cuts. Tax cuts are usually always a good thing, but in this case ... blah blah blah ... which resulted in lay-offs and price increases to make up for lost sales, and it is still happening.

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHH So before Bush the economy was fan-fuckin-tastic... Now I see the error of my ways.

The economy has been screwed up long before Bush. He may be responsible for walking the mud hole dry, but the mud hole was stomped in the ass of the economy long before he was around. I think (I could be mistaken) Roosevelt started the credit/ debit/ borrowing shit... It was around that era the "national debt" started becoming a household buzz phrase. So every president / congressman since then has a share of the blame, in my humble opinion.

How far should we go back? I think the previous administration is good enough. I was fortunate enough to live and work through an economy before Bush, the Clinton economy. 23 million jobs created over 8 years with higher taxes on the wealthy, more regulation on banks and big business, a balanced federal budget, and a surplus handed from Clinton to Bush. Anyone can go to treasurydirect.gov (debt to the penny) to see gov't spending numbers since 1993. Clinton's $1.7 trillion in spending was all paid for. The 90s was the biggest economic boom in this country's history

Bush ushered in this era of borrowing with no way to pay it back by decreasing taxes on those who controlled the most money. He is responsible for adding $5.6 trillion to the national debt, bringing it from 5.7 trillion to almost 11 trillion. The economy went into recession in March 2001. His 8 years created about 2 million jobs from 2001 through 2007, losing 750k/mo for the entire year of 2008, all due to his reckless spending. foolish deregulations of the banking industry, bad housing policies, and borrowing from other countries without any way to pay it back. Two wars and a prescription drug plan all on a credit card tend to add up and cause problems.