Dart - any thoughts yet?

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#1 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 10 October 2011 - 01:15 PM

Anyone had a chance to look at Dart yet? Any thoughts?

I'm not really a web developer, but I'm curious to see what the Goog's come up with this time so I'll probably have a browse through this at some stage...

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 10 October 2011 - 01:18 PM

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#2 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 10 October 2011 - 01:28 PM

I like what little syntax I saw. As I move into web based stuff I'll definitely need to be at least familiar with a browser language. However, since most of my web projects are pretty simple graphically, I can afford to wait and see if Dart becomes big. Go didn't exactly take off, but maybe Dart will.

Javascript is powerful, but it has so many gotchas that I just avoid it since I don't need it anyway.

This post has been edited by xclite: 10 October 2011 - 01:28 PM

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#3 Raynes  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 10 October 2011 - 04:24 PM

Meh.
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#4 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:24 PM

That's a pretty common reaction, actually.

I'm mostly curious because I don't do any web stuff currently. (okay, I could crank out a LAMP site if you held a gun to my head, but you'd get tired and drop the gun before I finished) I'm wondering if there's anything interesting in there that'll bring me to it, but so far it doesn't seem like it.
I suppose I'll take a look through the release material and play with the dartboard a little... as soon as I knock a few items off the list... so, maybe next year...
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#5 Programmist  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 10 October 2011 - 06:55 PM

View PostRaynes, on 10 October 2011 - 06:24 PM, said:

Meh.

Took the word right outta my mouth. I'll revisit this in a year or two and see what's become of it.
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#6 ishkabible  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 06:43 AM

it looks like dynamically typed Java so i'll follow suit...Meh
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#7 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is online

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:36 AM

Dart's obviously got a long way to go. Here's a link to what a simple Hello World compiles down to:

https://gist.github.com/1277224

Spoiler: it's almost 18000 lines of Javascript.

Spoiler

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#8 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:40 AM

I pointed out in the previously deleted thread that the javascript "Hello World" is not an argument against Dart's validity, whatever other feelings people may have. The goal of Dart isn't to be a language that compiles to Javascript - that's for current browser compatibility. The goal is to replace Javascript, so that Dart would run natively in the browser without the compilation to Javascript.
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#9 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 07:58 AM

In fact, if you're google you really don't want Dart to compile too nicely to Javascript. You really want browsers to run Dart natively, so you want a bit of a penalty for the conversion. Since you're google, and you already have one browser that'll run Dart natively, you can start putting Dart in everything you do. Suddenly Joe User finds that his web experience, when it touches google, is better in Chrome than it is in Firefox - Firefox has to either deal with Dart or lose that user.

Big companies tend to think this way when they start feeling indispensible.
The problem with this plan is that it doesn't mean that anyone's actually going to write any Dart - it just means that browsers will have to implement it.



That being said, that "compiled" hello world did make my eyes bleed a little.
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#10 Sergio Tapia  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 08:01 AM

I hate that everyone seems to be pushing their own supply onto us developers. Everyone being Microsoft, Google, etc.

We need a standard and have every major player follow that standard.

Already we're seeing big companies use Chrome-only features, how long until we fall back right into the same trap where we have to accomodate 17 different browser versions and languages?

Meh!

Nothing against Dart, I used it in the REPL and it's a fun little language. Since it's the first spec, we'll see how they can improve it. I'm excited.

But at the same time I wish everybody else jumps on the same bandwagon.
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#11 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 09:57 AM

View PostCurtis Rutland, on 12 October 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

Dart's obviously got a long way to go. Here's a link to what a simple Hello World compiles down to:

https://gist.github.com/1277224

Spoiler: it's almost 18000 lines of Javascript.

<snipped retarded and pointless inclusion of the linked Javascript>


The reason it got compiled into almost 18k lines of code was because they did static linking with .js libraries which requires that all of the core .js libraries also be rendered. The guy who compiled that is either a sensationalist or a fucking idiot.

The same thing happens if you statically link in libraries into a C hello-world program.
$ cat hello.c
#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{       
        printf("Hello world\n");
        return 0;
}
$ gcc -static -o hello hello.c
$ objdump --disassemble hello | wc -l
111065


Oh look at that, compiles into 111K lines of assembly.

This post has been edited by dorknexus: 12 October 2011 - 10:02 AM

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#12 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is online

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:37 AM

I'm aware of why it happens. There's a difference between native code and javascript though. My point was just that it has a long way to go, not that it's useless or bad.
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#13 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 10:55 AM

The difference is moot for these purposes. If that same C program is compiled without static linking it only renders ~200 lines of assembly.
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#14 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:02 AM

I think dorknexus is saying that's a very bad example for why it has a long way to come. Less to do with the language having a long way as opposed to the person compiling being a dingle-putz.


I haven't played around in 'Dart' yet at all. But ANYTHING that replaces javascript/jscript/ecmascript is a god-send in my book!

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 12 October 2011 - 11:04 AM

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#15 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: Dart - any thoughts yet?

Posted 12 October 2011 - 11:16 AM

Posted Image

...

Anyways, as a web person I'm not fond of the idea. This means more danged standards to watch out for and more things to have to learn that might or might not survive more than a year. Javascript is junk, no doubts, but at least it (mostly) works across browsers.
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