[Articles] Yammer and Scala

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#1 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is online

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[Articles] Yammer and Scala

Post icon  Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:11 AM

I missed the first round of this, but apparently a company called Yammer sent an email to the Scala people, describing what his engineers had found wrong with Scala. This email was leaked publicly, and quickly misinterpreted and blown out of proportions:

http://www.infoq.com...11/yammer-scala

Yammer has responded to this:

http://eng.yammer.co...-at-yammer.html

Some highlights:

Quote

...we'll use whatever tools will allow us to iterate faster on that goal. If Scala is that tool, we'll use Scala; if Java is that tool, we'll use Java; if INTERCAL is that tool, we'll use INTERCAL.

...

Along the way, we've found some problems with Scala. And Java. And Ruby. And C. And Javascript. And Objective-C. And Erlang. There isn't a single piece of technology we use that our engineers can't criticize; everything has flaws. For us, it's never been a question about whether Scala is perfect--it couldn't possibly be--but rather a question about whether or not Scala helps us in our goal of changing the face of business collaboration. It absolutely has, which is why we've used it for the past two years.

...

Typesafe, throughout this whole mess, has been nothing but awesome. When Donald heard we were moving some components from Scala to Java he reached out to me, asking what resources they could provide that might help us or what they could learn about our experiences which would help them improve Scala in the future.


Interesting to say the least.

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#2 Raynes  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:27 AM

I actually work for the company that Yammer spun off from a while back. Don't know the guy personally though.

It's sad to see how much of an uproar this has caused. One guy and one company decides that Scala isn't what they need and it becomes news. It's like every single person is just dying to see new technologies fail. I mean, Twitter seems to be doing fine with Scala.

That's nothing against Yammer though. Obviously Yammer weighed their options and found that Scala was not the best solution to their problem. The issue is the insane people who are using it as a weapon against Scala as if it means that Scala has been declared unviable.

I'm certainly not a Scala programmer, but I do really hate to see this kind of thing happen to the Scala community. In some crazy way, I guess it means that Scala is getting to the point of being well known. You can't really be a well-known language until people are complaining about you. ;)
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#3 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:37 AM

And they also said they're not dumping Scala, they're just not using it for everything. So, clearly blown way out of proportion.

You're right about that last bit though. You're not big-time until enough people know about you to hate you.
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#4 Raynes  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:47 AM

That's the way it is with new technologies sometimes. Everybody is sitting around with their pitchforks behind their backs waiting for the first problem to arise so that they can pounce and scream "I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU. I KNEW IT. HAHAHA. FAIL. FAIL. FAIL.".
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#5 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:17 PM

View PostRaynes, on 01 December 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

That's the way it is with new technologies sometimes. Everybody is sitting around with their pitchforks behind their backs waiting for the first problem to arise so that they can pounce and scream "I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU. I KNEW IT. HAHAHA. FAIL. FAIL. FAIL.".



I've just read the article, and I think it's going to be hard to convince me that the "only startup in San Francisco using Scala 2.9" is out with the pitchforks, and I think it's also going to be hard to convince me that they're excited by the idea of the failure of a tool that they've put a lot of money and time into, and it's also going to be hard to convince me that this is the first problem to arise.

Just sayin'.
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#6 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:07 PM

He's not saying that it's the startup with the pitchforks. It's people watching Scala seeing this startup have issues with it that had the pitchforks.
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#7 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 09:18 PM

Likely so. In any case, that's not what I'm seeing on the forums that I read. A lot of discussion, of course, but not so much pitchforks. Mostly people interested in languages talking about whether Scala's got a place in their toolbox. Some finding that yes, some no, and most trying to decide whether finding out is a good investment. This is good data on that. If nothing else, it puts a penny on the "not yet" side of the scale. For people trying to get something done, that can be very valuable, if the source is reliable, and it seems like a pretty thoughtful analysis after a real fair trial.


Not pitchforks.
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#8 Raynes  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:15 PM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 02 December 2011 - 03:17 AM, said:

View PostRaynes, on 01 December 2011 - 11:47 AM, said:

That's the way it is with new technologies sometimes. Everybody is sitting around with their pitchforks behind their backs waiting for the first problem to arise so that they can pounce and scream "I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU. I KNEW IT. HAHAHA. FAIL. FAIL. FAIL.".



I've just read the article, and I think it's going to be hard to convince me that the "only startup in San Francisco using Scala 2.9" is out with the pitchforks, and I think it's also going to be hard to convince me that they're excited by the idea of the failure of a tool that they've put a lot of money and time into, and it's also going to be hard to convince me that this is the first problem to arise.

Just sayin'.


Totally misunderstood me. Curtis is correct.
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#9 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 01 December 2011 - 10:51 PM

Raynes, I think you might also be missing a point. Is there anyone worth paying any attention to who's got their pitchfork out?
Or is this just a case of "can't sleep, someone on the internet is wrong"? Learn to let go a little, it would suck to have a heart attack before you hit thirty. Attacks on your languages are not attacks on you.
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#10 Raynes  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 02 December 2011 - 08:28 AM

Man, why do you automatically have to go there? I don't even *use* Scala. I do, however, have a mutual respect for it and its community.

You're taking me way too literally than you know you should. It must suck to need to try to even make people who *agree* with you feel wrong about something. Chill out and move on.
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#11 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 02 December 2011 - 09:37 AM

View PostRaynes, on 02 December 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:

You're taking me way too literally than you know you should. It must suck to need to try to even make people who *agree* with you feel wrong about something. Chill out and move on.

Haha, ouch.

And there are actually are pitchfork mobs and communities out there that really do latch onto any article criticizing (constructively or not) any new thing that has any sort of promise and blow it up. I've seen it, and it's quite common and valid to comment on. Just because Raynes uses a functional language does not mean that his remarking on the phenomenon is motivated by that use.
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#12 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:00 AM

Quote

And there are actually are pitchfork mobs and communities out there that really do latch onto any article criticizing (constructively or not) any new thing that has any sort of promise and blow it up.


Any examples of these people making a difference? Any cases of languages that got "blown up" by the trolls?
There's useful critique, and there's geeks waving their dicks around. The one is useful, and improves the language, and the other is just noise. There's none of it, as far as I can see, that ever actually hurts a language.
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#13 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:26 AM

This is going nowhere. The point of the article is that the criticism was constructive and that the original leaked email shouldn't be interpreted to be a slam on Scala.

This post has been edited by xclite: 02 December 2011 - 10:28 AM

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#14 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 02 December 2011 - 10:48 AM

Quote

the criticism was constructive and that the original leaked email shouldn't be interpreted to be a slam on Scala.


Right, that much was obvious if you read the original email. And from what I saw, the response was mostly people saying "He's got a point" or "He's got a point, but..."

So what's the big deal? I agree, there's not much to say about this - which is what I was saying to Raynes from the start.

Spoiler

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#15 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: [Articles] Yammer and Scala

Posted 02 December 2011 - 11:05 AM

Raynes was referring to the reactions of a few communities. He wasn't surprised somebody didn't like Scala. You really are perpetually missing his point. And if you seriously believe that the reactions you see are the only reactions to something, I don't know how you expect to hold a conversation with somebody of a differing opinion.

This post has been edited by xclite: 02 December 2011 - 11:07 AM

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