Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

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#16 anonymous26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 09:23 AM

Does the course make you feel confident in writing your own 3D game? If it doesn't, it's setting you up to only be a hobbyist at best.
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#17 stayscrisp  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 10:24 AM

As opposed to what? I just learn all by myself and all of a sudden that makes me able to program games like a professional. We are all hobbyist programmers until we manage to do it professionally, any help in the right direction is a plus. Who better to learn from than these guys who are actual professional game programmers with real world experience.

These things are all about what you take from them, the information and guidance from these courses is great in my opinion. Will it show me exactly how to write a professional 3D game for 60? No. Will it give me valuable skills and knowledge that can only make my attempts at creating games even more successful? Yes.
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#18 anonymous26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 11:09 AM

Well, that's all a matter of opinion. I believe it's something you either have or you don't. 99 bucks is not going to make you any better than you otherwise would be - yes, you might learn more, but if you're good you will continue to be good, and if you suck you will continue to suck.

There is no magic pill. We all learn differently, and you may see that opinion supporting yours in that some people will learn via this route. My point is that when it comes to programming games you are your own best teacher. Everything contained therein in this material can be found completely free.

It all comes down to the quality of education, and I am still very solid in the belief that computer science education is the way to go to make games professionally, or maybe at least have a better chance of doing so.

If anyone finds computer science too taxing then I can't see how they have any chance of making games professionally. Again, this is from experience more than opinion.

If you're passionate, make the effort! Overcome brick walls, and stop looking for shortcuts that don't exist.
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#19 stayscrisp  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:04 PM

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Well, that's all a matter of opinion.


What? That this is a great deal that will give people some great knowledge that will help them to create games. I don't see how anyone could disagree with this.


Quote

I believe it's something you either have or you don't. 99 bucks is not going to make you any better than you otherwise would be - yes, you might learn more, but if you're good you will continue to be good, and if you suck you will continue to suck.


And I believe this attitude is absolute bollocks. People can continue to improve in an area and eventually become just as proficient. Fair enough not everyone, but it definitely is not a case of you can or you can't.

Quote

It all comes down to the quality of education.
Everything contained therein in this material can be found completely free.


You yourself have said many a time that there is no substitute for experience in the industry, well these guys have tons of it. That's worth a few quid in my opinion and has no bad points at all.

Quote

If you're passionate, make the effort! Overcome brick walls, and stop looking for shortcuts that don't exist.


I don't see how four courses of twelve weeks+ can be considered a shortcut.

I respect your knowledge and your opinion but on issues like this you are beyond stubborn and I find it rather condescending. You seem to have no time for anything outside of the route you yourself took to become a game programmer.
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#20 iniaes  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:18 PM

I am inclined to agree with staycrisp. these courses are structured and appear to follow a logical learning path, and have been developed by people who are in the industry. That the course material is available for so little is a boon to those who are going to invest the time and effort into studying it, and for those who need help, I'm sure one of the many online communities will help them out instead of making them buy the tutor support.

I understand that you Butch believe that it is a waste of money, and indeed the material can probably be found elsewhere for free.

I am in fact looking at buying the robotics and console kits as that side of compsci fascinates me.
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#21 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:53 PM

So, can you opt for actual textbooks or just pdfs? I went through most of the checkout steps to find out, but it never specified.
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#22 anonymous26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 04:44 PM

View Poststayscrisp, on 31 December 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

Well, that's all a matter of opinion.


What? That this is a great deal that will give people some great knowledge that will help them to create games. I don't see how anyone could disagree with this.

You confuse helping people to make games, with having an idea of theory! They are most certainly NOT the same thing!


View Poststayscrisp, on 31 December 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

I believe it's something you either have or you don't. 99 bucks is not going to make you any better than you otherwise would be - yes, you might learn more, but if you're good you will continue to be good, and if you suck you will continue to suck.


And I believe this attitude is absolute bollocks. People can continue to improve in an area and eventually become just as proficient. Fair enough not everyone, but it definitely is not a case of you can or you can't.

And I believe you attitude your attitude to be bollocks, that is why we are having this conversation.

Can you answer the following questions:

1. How many people who have taken this course at any point got into the games industry?
2. If it is such a high demand and quality course, how is it that it has gradually devalued over the last ten-odd years?
3. What criteria are you using to declare this a 'quality course'? I can tell you now that it is little more than the basics that you should pick up in no time.

View Poststayscrisp, on 31 December 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

It all comes down to the quality of education.
Everything contained therein in this material can be found completely free.


You yourself have said many a time that there is no substitute for experience in the industry, well these guys have tons of it. That's worth a few quid in my opinion and has no bad points at all.

Yes, experience in the industry means working in the industry! No matter how much effort is invested in me or other members of the games industry teaching you or anyone else, nobody can teach years of experience. Secondly, there is a difference between being a good game developer and being a good teacher.

View Poststayscrisp, on 31 December 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 06:09 PM, said:

If you're passionate, make the effort! Overcome brick walls, and stop looking for shortcuts that don't exist.


I don't see how four courses of twelve weeks+ can be considered a shortcut.

I respect your knowledge and your opinion but on issues like this you are beyond stubborn and I find it rather condescending. You seem to have no time for anything outside of the route you yourself took to become a game programmer.

You misunderstand me, stayscrisp. The points that I am that I am trying to get through are:

1. Developing games is an extremely broad field. There is no fixed time that one can learn to make them, and only very few succeed.
2. This course only offers the basics to a hobbyist! Yes, it is very valuable to a professional game developer, and it is expected that they can pick up such info with ease, but in the real world you actually combine this and even more theory to come up with solutions to problems presented in games.
3. I am very sceptical of routes that offer, or claim to offer, a linear route to becoming a game developer - they just don't exist. They also present the misconception that they are 'good'. It aren't. It makes students/readers aware of some things to consider when making a game.

Have a look at this thread. Those who have experience of investigating the course material seem to kind of agree with me - particularly the moderator. Others who don't just think it's magic.
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#23 Apokio  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 07:56 PM

I signed up for these courses. I don't think they will be a "magic pill" that will teach me how to program games. From what I have read of the courses from students is some people don't think it teaches enough theory and only how to use an API. I signed up because I need structured learning. I envy the guys who just go google something and read a couple blog posts and programming documents and fully understand it. I can't do that. I have read countless threads, tutorials, and books I feel like I have the basics of game programming down but when I really get down to programming a game I just have so many questions and searching then finding over and over just gets a little to repetitive and time consuming.

Having these courses in a structured format set up by educators with the help of people in the industry seems like a good deal to me. I have spent much more than $99 in programming books on my shelf, and yes I could have just got it all for free by looking here and there but that is just way more time consuming.

Like I said before I earned my degree online and it sparked my interest in many things both programming and other related. The things that interested me caused to me to go out and search for theory and to really understand how it works. I am hoping these courses will do the same for me.

I work with my best friend and he a self taught IT guy and I am mostly a school/book taught guy. Are we any better than each other, No. Do we have the same knowledge, No. Can we help each other and work well together, Yes. Some people, like my friend, have a natural talent and some people, me, have to study and work hard at it. He spends down time watching You Tube and I spend it studying for certifications and just brushing up my skills. I wish I didn't have to work so hard but I do. Just because I sucked before doesn't mean I will still suck. Like staycrisp said it all what you put into it and what you ant to take from it. Can I make it? Yes, I can and I will.

I figured they put these courses out there this cheap because enrollment is down. Economy or maybe because the material is getting old. I don't care why, it is a huge amount information for a decent price. I wish I still had the email from BioWare from 5 years ago when I started college. I asked what they recommended for training after I finished my degree. They said if I was close and internship application to a gaming company was best, if not the Game Institute was a place they recommend.

Anyway I am gonna start the first class on Monday and start learning.
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#24 Apokio  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 31 December 2011 - 08:08 PM

View PostKYA, on 31 December 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

So, can you opt for actual textbooks or just pdfs? I went through most of the checkout steps to find out, but it never specified.


You can the textbooks for each course, if you want. Another thing is for the 3DS course the videos are 50+ hours so they only offer them in DVD not for streaming or download and they are $25 plus shipping. you can buy them when you sign up or when you take the course, or not at all if you think you can learn it all from just the text. Looks like the books run between $20 - $30 and looks like the 3DS classes book comes on the DVDs.
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#25 stayscrisp  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 01 January 2012 - 06:17 AM

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

Can you answer the following questions:

1. How many people who have taken this course at any point got into the games industry?


Quite a lot actually.

Quote

2. If it is such a high demand and quality course, how is it that it has gradually devalued over the last ten-odd years?


This could be due to any number of reasons not related to the quality of the course material, which I know from experience is good. One being that universities now offer game related degrees.

Quote

3. What criteria are you using to declare this a 'quality course'? I can tell you now that it is little more than the basics that you should pick up in no time.


Yeah, basics:

Progressive Meshes
Scene Hierarchies
Keyframe Animation
Indexed / Non-Indexed Vertex Blending
Software and Hardware Skinning Techniques
Skeletal Animation
Tree Animation and Rendering
X Files
Motion Blending
Collision Detection and Response
Quadtrees, Octrees, and kD-Trees
Binary Space Partitioning (BSP) Trees and Potential Visibility Sets (PVS)
plus a lot more...

I think I have made my point. Let's let people decide for themselves whether this is something they want to do or not.

View PostKYA, on 31 December 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

So, can you opt for actual textbooks or just pdfs? I went through most of the checkout steps to find out, but it never specified.


Yeah, you can get the textbooks. I think you just pay for the cost of shipping. It says on most of the course descriptions that they come with a textbook. I just use the PDF's though because I can put them on my Kindle and other devices.
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#26 bonyjoe  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 01 January 2012 - 07:15 AM

View PostKYA, on 31 December 2011 - 11:53 PM, said:

So, can you opt for actual textbooks or just pdfs? I went through most of the checkout steps to find out, but it never specified.


Once you have enrolled you get the option of "Have the course content shipped directly to your door! Includes all course textbooks. Includes course CD-ROM containing project files, full-audio lecture slides and more." for an extra $24.99

I presume this means that you will get all the textbooks for that one price, the 3ds max course content seems to be digital only though.

edit: actually I think that's per textbook, which isn't that amazing a deal.

This post has been edited by bonyjoe: 01 January 2012 - 07:17 AM

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#27 anonymous26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 01 January 2012 - 03:17 PM

View Poststayscrisp, on 01 January 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

Can you answer the following questions:

1. How many people who have taken this course at any point got into the games industry?


Quite a lot actually.

And with that link I rest my case. I have interviewed with and worked for some listed in there, as well as knowing people who work in other companies listed - I know a lot of their criteria to get the job. This course is not even close. Those who got jobs at those companies are likely to have supplemented this 'qualification' either through formal, or informal study.

Also, it is made clear that they can be found working at those companies, as opposed to 'working as software engineers' at these companies. Each of these companies offer a variety of roles not tied to programming.

View Poststayscrisp, on 01 January 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

2. If it is such a high demand and quality course, how is it that it has gradually devalued over the last ten-odd years?


This could be due to any number of reasons not related to the quality of the course material, which I know from experience is good. One being that universities now offer game related degrees.

With all due respect, your experience is not industry experience. Beyond the math in there, you will be required to learn unfamiliar techniques that simply are not offered on that course. This is what makes developing games such a challenge - being creative with solutions.

View Poststayscrisp, on 01 January 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 31 December 2011 - 11:44 PM, said:

3. What criteria are you using to declare this a 'quality course'? I can tell you now that it is little more than the basics that you should pick up in no time.


Yeah, basics:

Progressive Meshes
Scene Hierarchies
Keyframe Animation
Indexed / Non-Indexed Vertex Blending
Software and Hardware Skinning Techniques
Skeletal Animation
Tree Animation and Rendering
X Files
Motion Blending
Collision Detection and Response
Quadtrees, Octrees, and kD-Trees
Binary Space Partitioning (BSP) Trees and Potential Visibility Sets (PVS)
plus a lot more...

I think I have made my point. Let's let people decide for themselves whether this is something they want to do or not.

And there is no role in the industry that requires all of these techniques. What I also find concerning with that is that the more subjects that are required to be covered in the time frame given means that each topic might not be covered as well as it should be to be proficient. You may see a lot of topic coverage as quality, but I see it as the opposite, giving people studying it the false impression that they are good enough for the industry after putting themselves through the material.

As you say, you have made your point and so have I. It is not my intention to stop people buying this material in the least; just putting its content in perspective.
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#28 bonyjoe  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 02 January 2012 - 06:09 AM

So to summarise... Do not use this as your only form of education, I would have hoped that no one would have thought that was a good idea anyway.
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#29 Apokio  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 03 January 2012 - 06:57 AM

View Postbonyjoe, on 02 January 2012 - 06:09 AM, said:

So to summarise... Do not use this as your only form of education, I would have hoped that no one would have thought that was a good idea anyway.


Totally agree. I the first post he put would have started with that, it would have put a whole new spin on it.
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#30 SixOfEleven  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Institute: Ultimate Deal

Posted 04 January 2012 - 12:37 PM

I bought the package as well and I'm sure I'm going to learn a lot from the material. If you get a job in the industry you might not have to do all that is included in the course content but I'm positive that you will use some of it. Concepts stay with you for the rest of your life. Also I don't think this should be your only source for learning but it is an excellent source for learning and an excellent starting point for those wishing to break into game programming. The two introductory courses on C++ seem to be quite thorough and the same with the math and AI courses. I see buying this as no different than buying two or three books from Amazon that cost $40 or $50 each.
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