Which language to use?

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#1 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Which language to use?

Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:00 PM

I'm sure you have all seen my other post on what I am trying to do, now after reading some responses I think I'm going in the wrong direction. I am basiclly wanting to create some shipping/receiving software. It will need to be run on some machines(the problem is I am not sure if they are macs or PCs) I also would like to make it compatible with a bar code scanner. Basiclly this software will allow a user to login with a password, enter in shipping/receiving type of information whether it be through a keyboard or a barcode scanner, and then send an email to the owners and managers of the company. My problem is it seems they will need the JRE if I am using Java. I first chose Java for it is easier to make GUI's and for what I was trying to do, plus I have been training myself on Java. Now though it seems it would not be as easy to deploy for they need the JRE, and may not understand how to get that on their system. So back to drawing boards is where I am should I do this in C++ instead? I have 3 years through school in developing in C++, would this be easier for me to deploy to the users than Java? Is C++ compatible with a barcode scanner? What do you all think go with Java like originally planned, or C++? Also how hard is it to make a GUI like I did in Java? With C++ I've created simple DOS looking applications but I want my program to look as robust as a application like MS Word. I've also created simple games that had a GUI looking window that calculated different physics types of operations. I've never tried this before so this is all new to me. I also want to be able to put this on a disc for distribution, and have it be easily able to install just like any other Windows type of program, so on that note what language is best to use to do this as well? So basiclly if someone can assist me in this decision it would be greatly appreciated, thanks;)

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#2 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:58 PM

View PostGmoney93079, on 30 December 2011 - 04:00 PM, said:

I'm sure you have all seen my other post on what I am trying to do, now after reading some responses I think I'm going in the wrong direction. I am basiclly wanting to create some shipping/receiving software. It will need to be run on some machines(the problem is I am not sure if they are macs or PCs) I also would like to make it compatible with a bar code scanner. Basiclly this software will allow a user to login with a password, enter in shipping/receiving type of information whether it be through a keyboard or a barcode scanner, and then send an email to the owners and managers of the company. My problem is it seems they will need the JRE if I am using Java. I first chose Java for it is easier to make GUI's and for what I was trying to do, plus I have been training myself on Java. Now though it seems it would not be as easy to deploy for they need the JRE, and may not understand how to get that on their system. So back to drawing boards is where I am should I do this in C++ instead? I have 3 years through school in developing in C++, would this be easier for me to deploy to the users than Java? Is C++ compatible with a barcode scanner? What do you all think go with Java like originally planned, or C++? Also how hard is it to make a GUI like I did in Java? With C++ I've created simple DOS looking applications but I want my program to look as robust as a application like MS Word. I've also created simple games that had a GUI looking window that calculated different physics types of operations. I've never tried this before so this is all new to me. I also want to be able to put this on a disc for distribution, and have it be easily able to install just like any other Windows type of program, so on that note what language is best to use to do this as well? So basiclly if someone can assist me in this decision it would be greatly appreciated, thanks;)


hmmmmmmm......Just did some research and saw that C# is used for GUI's which is more what I'm trying to do than have a user have to use text all the time. What do you all think, added benefit would be I can use it to start with my main career the video game industry by going through XBOX arcade;) The Java could work to through a download through the web, but I rather have the user have a cd in case something happens, damn this is confusing.
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#3 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 09:17 AM

So basically you don't know any programming language yet, and you're trying to decide what to learn first. Is that right? (yes I consider 3 years of college C++ next to nothing. The same amount of C++ could have been learnt on your own in about 6 months. It gives you a C-family base though. But if you haven't actively done anything with it beyond the 3 years of school homework then it really hold no advantage to you over learning C#)

Personally I'd go C#. I like it. Ask 10 guys here you'll get 10 different answers. You might as well be asking "What car should I drive?" But since you mention wanting to do Xbox stuff using C# would get you in the right direction.

Newbie/Rookie said:

I have a little programming experience but I need to write ...


You need to start there. I can't say "I have little experience in speaking Russian, but I have been assigned to write a mystery novel in Russian. Can you help me?"

We can help you by saying "First learn basic programming and the language of C#. Then take on assignments." Could someone here write this program for you? Sure. Could someone here map out all the processes you need to follow and do the Software Design part of this in the slim hope you could code it from there? Sure. But we don't volunteer to do the job that you're either getting paid for, or getting a grade for. You may want to read this.

For now, just work on the lessons. Do a self-teaching book from cover to cover. Then consider writing a program.

Don't try to create a useful working program to fit a need of yours (or a for-pay contract) as your introduction to coding project. When you are learning to code you don't know enough to code a program, let alone know how to engineer the architecture of a program. It would be like saying "I don't know how to read sheet music, or play an instrument. I think I'll write a 3 act opera as my first learning experience."

I don't say this to be mean. We've seen lots of new coders take this approach and we know it doesn't work. Trying to design your own programs before you understand the basics of the code language you've chosen just leads to problems, frustrations, and 'swiss-cheese' education (lots of holes).


Resources, references and suggestions for new programmers. - Updated Dec 2011
Spoiler

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 31 December 2011 - 09:20 AM

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#4 baavgai  Icon User is online

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 12:48 PM

First, JRE needing to be installed on clients is not a huge factor. If you are "not sure if they are macs or PCs" then it should still be on the table.

C# isn't bad, since any Windows box should have some form of the .NET framework. However, the Windows client might still need a Windows Update depending on version compatibility. Note, this really isn't a viable option for a non Windows machine. Even if it was, any cross platform solution you could cobble together would make JRE look like a cake walk.

For any GUI development, the stumbling block in the graphics bit. On Windows, it's really all just Windows. But if you use some non Microsoft abstraction, like Qt or GTK, you'd need that packaged too.

Since you've already stated you need a "user to login", then you basically need server? You could just make a web application at that point and avoid a lot of the deployment hassles.
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#5 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 01:48 PM

View Postbaavgai, on 31 December 2011 - 12:48 PM, said:

First, JRE needing to be installed on clients is not a huge factor. If you are "not sure if they are macs or PCs" then it should still be on the table.

C# isn't bad, since any Windows box should have some form of the .NET framework. However, the Windows client might still need a Windows Update depending on version compatibility. Note, this really isn't a viable option for a non Windows machine. Even if it was, any cross platform solution you could cobble together would make JRE look like a cake walk.

For any GUI development, the stumbling block in the graphics bit. On Windows, it's really all just Windows. But if you use some non Microsoft abstraction, like Qt or GTK, you'd need that packaged too.

Since you've already stated you need a "user to login", then you basically need server? You could just make a web application at that point and avoid a lot of the deployment hassles.


Thanks I was thinking that as well, but Network administrating is what I will be learning this session in school. The other problem is I'm not sure if they have a main server. The person owns 3 different companies and I am unaware of what they use at this moment. The question though mainly is what language would you think would be better for this project?
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#6 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:00 PM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 31 December 2011 - 09:17 AM, said:

So basically you don't know any programming language yet, and you're trying to decide what to learn first. Is that right? (yes I consider 3 years of college C++ next to nothing. The same amount of C++ could have been learnt on your own in about 6 months. It gives you a C-family base though. But if you haven't actively done anything with it beyond the 3 years of school homework then it really hold no advantage to you over learning C#)

Personally I'd go C#. I like it. Ask 10 guys here you'll get 10 different answers. You might as well be asking "What car should I drive?" But since you mention wanting to do Xbox stuff using C# would get you in the right direction.

Newbie/Rookie said:

I have a little programming experience but I need to write ...


You need to start there. I can't say "I have little experience in speaking Russian, but I have been assigned to write a mystery novel in Russian. Can you help me?"

We can help you by saying "First learn basic programming and the language of C#. Then take on assignments." Could someone here write this program for you? Sure. Could someone here map out all the processes you need to follow and do the Software Design part of this in the slim hope you could code it from there? Sure. But we don't volunteer to do the job that you're either getting paid for, or getting a grade for. You may want to read this.

For now, just work on the lessons. Do a self-teaching book from cover to cover. Then consider writing a program.

Don't try to create a useful working program to fit a need of yours (or a for-pay contract) as your introduction to coding project. When you are learning to code you don't know enough to code a program, let alone know how to engineer the architecture of a program. It would be like saying "I don't know how to read sheet music, or play an instrument. I think I'll write a 3 act opera as my first learning experience."

I don't say this to be mean. We've seen lots of new coders take this approach and we know it doesn't work. Trying to design your own programs before you understand the basics of the code language you've chosen just leads to problems, frustrations, and 'swiss-cheese' education (lots of holes).


Resources, references and suggestions for new programmers. - Updated Dec 2011
Spoiler


Ok I understand what you are saying but I do have experience in programming through school and what I have been teaching myself. I understand how to develop a program, and then learning the language is not hard especially with Eclipse, or Visual studios for they both have intellisense which helps me locate my errors when debugging and provides typically what I need to fill in in different areas of my program. Now when it comes to languages or anything for that matter I pick it up easily. I am confident I can make this program, and never stated I wanted anyone to code it here. Truthfully I'm trying to hide as much information as possible so no one takes my ideas. So back to the question on a project of this nature what language would be best and why?
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#7 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 02:22 PM

View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

Ok I understand what you are saying but I do have experience in programming through school and what I have been teaching myself.


I think you are confusing 'experience' with 'theoretical understanding from education'. You can read every book on sex education. But until you have sex it is all just theory waiting to be put into practice. And for both of these subjects the practice is key. Getting through the basic mechanics and being really, really good at either requires a lot more than just book knowledge or following a step-by-step guide.


View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

I understand how to develop a program, and then learning the language is not hard especially with Eclipse, or Visual studios for they both have intellisense which helps me locate my errors when debugging and provides typically what I need to fill in in different areas of my program. Now when it comes to languages or anything for that matter I pick it up easily.
Forgive this next statement, and please just take it as a blunt attempt at a wake-up call:
The nature of all of your topics would indicate otherwise. They are almost all about "How do I fix this basic problem?"

Here you are still talking about the mechanics of the process, not the art of the craftsmanship. What you are talking about here is 'coding', which is only one part of actual 'Software Engineering'.

For what it is worth... I would have spent a lot less time asking everyone else about what language to write this in, and a lot more time actually writing it. Write it in 5 different langaguages if you like. Then you will have the experience to decide for yourself which actually clicks with you: C+, C# WinForms, C# WPF, Objective-C (you said it might be on Macs).



Quote

I am basiclly wanting to create some shipping/receiving software. It will need to be run on some machines(the problem is I am not sure if they are macs or PCs) I also would like to make it compatible with a bar code scanner. Basiclly this software will allow a user to login with a password, enter in shipping/receiving type of information whether it be through a keyboard or a barcode scanner, and then send an email to the owners and managers of the company.

I realize this is not the entire project spec. But this part would have been about a week of spare time (a couple hours in the evening and 1-2 days of the weekend.)

Jumping in and writing it would give you experience to go along with your education.
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#8 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:24 PM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 31 December 2011 - 02:22 PM, said:

View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

Ok I understand what you are saying but I do have experience in programming through school and what I have been teaching myself.


I think you are confusing 'experience' with 'theoretical understanding from education'. You can read every book on sex education. But until you have sex it is all just theory waiting to be put into practice. And for both of these subjects the practice is key. Getting through the basic mechanics and being really, really good at either requires a lot more than just book knowledge or following a step-by-step guide.


View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 03:00 PM, said:

I understand how to develop a program, and then learning the language is not hard especially with Eclipse, or Visual studios for they both have intellisense which helps me locate my errors when debugging and provides typically what I need to fill in in different areas of my program. Now when it comes to languages or anything for that matter I pick it up easily.
Forgive this next statement, and please just take it as a blunt attempt at a wake-up call:
The nature of all of your topics would indicate otherwise. They are almost all about "How do I fix this basic problem?"

Here you are still talking about the mechanics of the process, not the art of the craftsmanship. What you are talking about here is 'coding', which is only one part of actual 'Software Engineering'.

For what it is worth... I would have spent a lot less time asking everyone else about what language to write this in, and a lot more time actually writing it. Write it in 5 different langaguages if you like. Then you will have the experience to decide for yourself which actually clicks with you: C+, C# WinForms, C# WPF, Objective-C (you said it might be on Macs).



Quote

I am basiclly wanting to create some shipping/receiving software. It will need to be run on some machines(the problem is I am not sure if they are macs or PCs) I also would like to make it compatible with a bar code scanner. Basiclly this software will allow a user to login with a password, enter in shipping/receiving type of information whether it be through a keyboard or a barcode scanner, and then send an email to the owners and managers of the company.

I realize this is not the entire project spec. But this part would have been about a week of spare time (a couple hours in the evening and 1-2 days of the weekend.)

Jumping in and writing it would give you experience to go along with your education.


It's ok to be blunt and I understand what your saying, yes I have not worked for a company, but I do have educational experience in coding. Yes I could write in 5 or 10 languages, but that would be wasting my time, and I don't have time to waste. That is why I'm asking someone such as yourself, what language would be best. When it comes to my previous posts, they were simple problems recently how to fix, such as haveing the right libraries for Java, etc.... What I do understand is the concepts of programming, such as making a flowchart for the design of my program, programming pseudocode for it and then working on the actual programming. I'm just trying to solve which language to use, for I want to have the right tools of the trade. By the way this is my wake up call, for I am trying to accomplish a task I have never tried before. So the only assistance I really need is which language to use for my task for the languages I have used before are Android, C++, Java, and some C#. Thanks
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#9 Oler1s  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:30 PM

> but I do have educational experience in coding.

Worthless. I'm sorry, but the real experience is you sitting down and writing sizeable programs with clear budgets in mind. Your educational experience so far is not compareable.

> what language would be best.

What you know and are productive in.

> What I do understand is the concepts of programming

No you don't. When you are working regularly on > 10K loc programs, you can start speaking about understanding programming. Until then, you don't know what it is to actually program. You really don't, until you are doing it yourself.

> So the only assistance I really need is which language to use for my task for the languages I have used before are Android, C++, Java, and some C#.

Use the language you are most productive in.
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#10 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 03:52 PM

I won't repeat what Oler1s said because he said it so well and straight to the point. I couldn't have said it better myself. I will however add on to it.

View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

What I do understand is the concepts of programming, such as making a flowchart for the design of my program, programming pseudocode for it and then working on the actual programming.


That right there exemplifies the gap between school and real world experience. Nobody I know does that crap; and hasn't for a decade. That's stuff from 1980's high school BASIC that is still part of today's curriculum because (1) Nobody has taken it out and (2) padding the curriculum so 8 months of education takes 4 years is how you get 4 years of tuition out of thousands of students.

In the real world it is more about
  • Discussions and emails for features,
  • Discussions of future direction so todays app can grow instead of need to be rebuilt from scratch
  • white boarding
    • The GUI
    • The interaction of the work process
    • The real-world order of operation
    • and stubbing out important parts of classes.



View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

I'm just trying to solve which language to use, for I want to have the right tools of the trade. By the way this is my wake up call, for I am trying to accomplish a task I have never tried before. So the only assistance I really need is which language to use for my task for the languages I have used before are Android, C++, Java, and some C#. Thanks


Ok. I'll tell you. Do it in C# and in Window Presentation Foundation. That is the planned future for all Windows programs, and the C# will let you do Xbox creation. I've done WinForms for years and wished I had made the jump to WPF before this last month. Since it is all equally new to you then starting with WPF is the best direction you can go.

Now go forth and code. I look forward to seeing your first draft in a week.
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#11 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 04:05 PM

View PostOler1s, on 31 December 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

> but I do have educational experience in coding.

Worthless. I'm sorry, but the real experience is you sitting down and writing sizeable programs with clear budgets in mind. Your educational experience so far is not compareable.

> what language would be best.

What you know and are productive in.

> What I do understand is the concepts of programming

No you don't. When you are working regularly on > 10K loc programs, you can start speaking about understanding programming. Until then, you don't know what it is to actually program. You really don't, until you are doing it yourself.

> So the only assistance I really need is which language to use for my task for the languages I have used before are Android, C++, Java, and some C#.

Use the language you are most productive in.


Ok so obviously I should just not bother asking any of you so far regarding my task. You may consider my education worthless I don't. Just because you have experience does not mean you are better at the task than I am, and that I can't do what I'm trying to do. You could be lazy, not program efficiently and many other things. I do not want to go into a battle on this matter, all I'm asking is one simple question that I was looking for experienced programmers for help on. To me C++ maybe too much for my task, Java may not work due to not having the user be able to understand how to download the environment, C# may not work like C++ if they use macs, Android will not work due to it not being for a mobile device. So I will ask again in a different way, if you were designing some shipping/receiving software, what language would you use and why, thanks.

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 31 December 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

I won't repeat what Oler1s said because he said it so well and straight to the point. I couldn't have said it better myself. I will however add on to it.

View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

What I do understand is the concepts of programming, such as making a flowchart for the design of my program, programming pseudocode for it and then working on the actual programming.


That right there exemplifies the gap between school and real world experience. Nobody I know does that crap; and hasn't for a decade. That's stuff from 1980's high school BASIC that is still part of today's curriculum because (1) Nobody has taken it out and (2) padding the curriculum so 8 months of education takes 4 years is how you get 4 years of tuition out of thousands of students.

In the real world it is more about
  • Discussions and emails for features,
  • Discussions of future direction so todays app can grow instead of need to be rebuilt from scratch
  • white boarding
    • The GUI
    • The interaction of the work process
    • The real-world order of operation
    • and stubbing out important parts of classes.



View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

I'm just trying to solve which language to use, for I want to have the right tools of the trade. By the way this is my wake up call, for I am trying to accomplish a task I have never tried before. So the only assistance I really need is which language to use for my task for the languages I have used before are Android, C++, Java, and some C#. Thanks


Ok. I'll tell you. Do it in C# and in Window Presentation Foundation. That is the planned future for all Windows programs, and the C# will let you do Xbox creation. I've done WinForms for years and wished I had made the jump to WPF before this last month. Since it is all equally new to you then starting with WPF is the best direction you can go.

Now go forth and code. I look forward to seeing your first draft in a week.


Thank you a simplified answer finally, I will try that and see what I can produce for I was doing window forms just now as well, and found it similar to Android. I will check out the one you recommended and then work from there, thanks for the assist;)
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#12 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 31 December 2011 - 05:23 PM

View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

Ok so obviously I should just not bother asking any of you so far regarding my task. You may consider my education worthless I don't. Just because you have experience does not mean you are better at the task than I am, and that I can't do what I'm trying to do. You could be lazy, not program efficiently and many other things. I do not want to go into a battle on this matter, all I'm asking is one simple question that I was looking for experienced programmers for help on. To me C++ maybe too much for my task, Java may not work due to not having the user be able to understand how to download the environment, C# may not work like C++ if they use macs, Android will not work due to it not being for a mobile device. So I will ask again in a different way, if you were designing some shipping/receiving software, what language would you use and why, thanks.


I'm really sorry you decided to take such a dark and defensive position on this. I am known for being nothing if not frank. I see no reason to change now.

You've been told several times to just do it in C#.
I said it in Post #3
Baavgai seconded that in post #4
Then I again said it in post #10

And still you ask what language to use...

View PostGmoney93079, on 31 December 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

So I will ask again in a different way, if you were designing some shipping/receiving software, what language would you use and why, thanks.

You seem to be stalling. If you keep asking this question, and keep putting off the actual coding of the project while you "gather your details and formulate a plan", then you never actual fail at coding it; because you never really start.

As of this last post you seem to be spoiling for fight and looking for some mythical programming language you can use on Mac, Windows, Androids, Xbox, your home blueray player and the navigation system of a 2009 Toyota.

You say you want the opinions of experienced development professionals then get offended when their advice isn't blowing sunshine up your skirt about how valuable your college courses were.

I'll be unsubscribing from this thread now since you've taken it as far as you {productively} can, without further insulting the experienced professionals you are asking the opinion of, which you seem to hold in both high and low regard depending on your emotional reaction to what they have to say.

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 31 December 2011 - 03:22 PM, said:

Quote

I am basiclly wanting to create some shipping/receiving software. It will need to be run on some machines(the problem is I am not sure if they are macs or PCs) I also would like to make it compatible with a bar code scanner. Basiclly this software will allow a user to login with a password, enter in shipping/receiving type of information whether it be through a keyboard or a barcode scanner, and then send an email to the owners and managers of the company.

I realize this is not the entire project spec. But this part would have been about a week of spare time (a couple hours in the evening and 1-2 days of the weekend.)


It's a week of work and you've wasted that much in this thread. I think you need to quit gabbing about the project and actual start working on it. Let's be honest: After all this time you should have all the conceptual work done. None of that is language specific. Working out the objects and the interactions and the look etc. has NOTHING to do with the language of choice. So write the damned code already and again, I look forward to seeing what you have done this time next week.
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#13 Gmoney93079  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 02 January 2012 - 03:37 PM

LOL;) well regarding this time this week we will see, sorry for asking which language so many times, I do have certain regards for you, but I don't appreciate someone criticizing my education. Regards to this week hard to say since I started school again today, but I should have a better idea of what to do as soon as I talk to the business owner. I kept asking for I wanted to get it done but have been extremely busy. My choice though is still unsure for I need more info from the owner. So I think I'm just going to code it in both and work from there. Thanks for the help and letting me aware of the WPF in C#. So far C# is very interesting to me especially with the Drag and Drop, it's simalar to Android. Anyways when I have something more completed I'll let you be aware you can count on that.

This post has been edited by macosxnerd101: 02 January 2012 - 04:57 PM
Reason for edit:: Removed quote

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#14 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 02 January 2012 - 04:32 PM

There really is no reason to quote entire long posts when it is the immediately preceeding comment. That just makes the entire thread a mile long.

Can someone with privileges in this forum please delete the OP's unneeded long quotes to make this thread more readable?
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#15 macosxnerd101  Icon User is online

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Re: Which language to use?

Posted 02 January 2012 - 04:59 PM

Quote

So far C# is very interesting to me especially with the Drag and Drop, it's simalar to Android.

The Android GUI Builder with Eclipse is better than a lot of the Swing GUI Builders. A lot of the code it produces is still cumbersome and ugly though. You will get much cleaner and more maintainable code writing it by hand. Microsoft has put significantly more effort into providing a quality GUI Builder than has been done in the Java world. When in Java, write your code by hand. With .NET, it's a different story.
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