Are programmers smart?

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141 Replies - 5420 Views - Last Post: 14 March 2012 - 12:00 PM

#31 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 07:20 AM

View Postsearcher920, on 23 February 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

since I am the only female I have to be extremely careful not to seem helpless.


QFT
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#32 NeoTifa  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:40 AM

No, we're all fucking stupid.
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#33 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 09:53 AM

View Postsearcher920, on 23 February 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

People in the IT department where I work avoid asking questions, because it's a sign of ignorance. I would rather search google for hours than ask someone in my department. If I am totally and hopelessly lost, I will ask. But then I either get the "you idiot" look, or a well-meaning guy comes over to my computer and starts typing in my program and wrecks it.

In the 10 years I worked there almost no one ever asked me for help. It is taken as a sign of wimpiness to need help.

Too bad, because I would much rather communicate. But since I am the only female I have to be extremely careful not to seem helpless.


That's an interesting take. You're assuming that the guys are treating you differently than other guys? You believe you're the only one who gets the "you idiot" look...and it's due to your gender if you are getting it?

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I would rather search google for hours than ask someone in my department.

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Too bad, because I would much rather communicate. But since I am the only female I have to be extremely careful not to seem helpless.


I don't know if those two aren't kind of conflicting there. No offense intended...just sayin'.
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#34 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:28 AM

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I think what she's saying is she would prefer to socialize, but instead stays silent and Googles like mad to avoid the response she receives from the boys club.

That's not to say that men who step up and ask for help don't get the same response. There's a very fine line between 'smart person asking for help' and 'dumbass doesn't belong here'. I don't think it's limited to females, I think it's just a general arrogance in the field... if I go to you for help, you become "better" than me - regardless of what does or does not live between my legs.

I think it's the primary reason DIC deals with so many students seeking help and comparatively few professionals. Even the term "professional" is indicative of someone who doesn't need help, but gives help to other non-professionals, to those beneath the professional's stature. Coming to a forum to say this is what you do for a living, but you need help achieving it makes you feel like you shouldn't be doing what you do... like you're not good enough, not smart enough, to be "professional". And that's just the vibe on the nameless, faceless internet. That feeling is amplified when you're asking for help from coders you have to see every day.
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#35 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:33 AM

Let's not forget it was already established that the 'boys club' is genetic due to women being programmed with more modesty.
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#36 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:38 AM

View PostNeoTifa, on 24 February 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

No, we're all fucking stupid.


I feel this way sometimes too. Especially after I was wondering why my Internet wasn't working and forgot to plug the ether cable in. Or the time I couldn't find my glasses and it turns out I was wearing them all along.

This post has been edited by WolfCoder: 24 February 2012 - 10:38 AM

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#37 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:50 AM

View PostBenignDesign, on 24 February 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I think what she's saying is she would prefer to socialize, but instead stays silent and Googles like mad to avoid the response she receives from the boys club.

That's not to say that men who step up and ask for help don't get the same response. There's a very fine line between 'smart person asking for help' and 'dumbass doesn't belong here'. I don't think it's limited to females, I think it's just a general arrogance in the field... if I go to you for help, you become "better" than me - regardless of what does or does not live between my legs.

I think it's the primary reason DIC deals with so many students seeking help and comparatively few professionals. Even the term "professional" is indicative of someone who doesn't need help, but gives help to other non-professionals, to those beneath the professional's stature. Coming to a forum to say this is what you do for a living, but you need help achieving it makes you feel like you shouldn't be doing what you do... like you're not good enough, not smart enough, to be "professional". And that's just the vibe on the nameless, faceless internet. That feeling is amplified when you're asking for help from coders you have to see every day.


If you don't think it's limited to females then why agree with:

Quote

since I am the only female I have to be extremely careful not to seem helpless.


The point I pretty much failed making was the one you just said much better than I did:

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There's a very fine line between 'smart person asking for help' and 'dumbass doesn't belong here'. I don't think it's limited to females, I think it's just a general arrogance in the field... if I go to you for help, you become "better" than me - regardless of what does or does not live between my legs.


We've debated sexism in the workplace more than once before and I'll accept the notion that because I'm not female that I cannot understand the latent sexism in an industry dominated by members of the opposite sex (although my previous career in insurance claims was around 75-80% women). However, I had intended to point out that the hierarchy you describe that encompasses "smart person" on one end and "dumbass" on the other isn't, in my experience, a situation applied uniquely to women (unless some of my colleagues believe I'm actually female...which may explain a few other things).

I like to apply "genius" and "idiot" on those who those who aptly demonstrate such qualities and that tends to be genderless. Of course, I can only speak for myself in this.
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#38 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:52 AM

I think sexism should be fought relentlessly and violently. With vicegrips if need be.
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#39 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:55 AM

Don't make me apply a descriptive label to you.

Cause I'll totally do it. You can't stop me.

This post has been edited by Craig328: 24 February 2012 - 10:56 AM

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#40 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

View Postmodi123_1, on 24 February 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Let's not forget it was already established that the 'boys club' is genetic due to women being programmed with more modesty.


Have you seen any women lately? College girls running about with muffin tops a-wobbling, ass cheeks bouncing freely, cleavage to their throats? Throngs of women who strip nude for porno mags? The anorexic world of supermodels? Women are only modest when they feel somehow threatened or inferior.

In the tech realm, it's normally only the "boys club" because there's only 1 or 2 females in the department.

My current job lacks a boys club. I am the entire web dev department. The IT department here is a 50/50 split in gender.

My last job, however, it was me versus the testosterone machine. We did eventually hire a female intern as well, but for a long time it was me and 10 men in a dark room full of cubicles. For a man, it's the stuff of porn. For a woman, it's the stuff of nightmares. I had to let my bitch out, but once the boundaries were established, I didn't get much shit from the rest of my coder crew (I was the lead developer when I left).

I wish I could say I got the same level of respect from the bosses, but if that were the case, I would probably still be working there.
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#41 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 10:59 AM

View PostCraig328, on 24 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Don't make me apply a descriptive label to you.

Cause I'll totally do it. You can't stop me.


What, french coffee pressing rage-filled c programming kawaii loving gender confused pyromaniacal furry?

This post has been edited by WolfCoder: 24 February 2012 - 11:00 AM

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#42 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:03 AM

View PostBenignDesign, on 24 February 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

We did eventually hire a female intern as well, but for a long time it was me and 10 men in a dark room full of cubicles.


I...uh...actually, never mind.

View PostWolfCoder, on 24 February 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

What, french coffee pressing rage-filled c programming kawaii loving gender confused pyromaniacal furry?


...or that. Sure, let's go with that.
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#43 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostCraig328, on 24 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

If you don't think it's limited to females then why agree with:

Quote

since I am the only female I have to be extremely careful not to seem helpless.


Because I've seen the sexism in the industry (in life in general) first hand. Once the opinion is formed that you're the "helpless woman" or the "stupid woman"... it's nearly impossible to escape that label. In addition, as women, we are told (I don't know if they still are, but we were when I was a student) that this is a man's field and we don't belong in it... which brings us back to that inferiority bit. I know I'm just as good as the guy next to me... maybe even better... but if I humble myself to ask for help, it makes me look weak, stupid, incapable. I don't want to give him the satisfaction of thinking he's better than me, just because I'm a girl.
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#44 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:28 AM

View PostBenignDesign, on 24 February 2012 - 01:08 PM, said:

View PostCraig328, on 24 February 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

If you don't think it's limited to females then why agree with:

Quote

since I am the only female I have to be extremely careful not to seem helpless.


Because I've seen the sexism in the industry (in life in general) first hand. Once the opinion is formed that you're the "helpless woman" or the "stupid woman"... it's nearly impossible to escape that label. In addition, as women, we are told (I don't know if they still are, but we were when I was a student) that this is a man's field and we don't belong in it... which brings us back to that inferiority bit. I know I'm just as good as the guy next to me... maybe even better... but if I humble myself to ask for help, it makes me look weak, stupid, incapable. I don't want to give him the satisfaction of thinking he's better than me, just because I'm a girl.


The quoted question is bizarre. Surely it's obvious that there's nothing inconsistent about the two propositions? I don't think anyone would argue that men and women are not viewed and treated differently in the workplace, and surely it's obvious that one of the differences is that women are more readily viewed (by morons, admittedly, but there's no shortage of those) as incapable of dealing with technical matters.
Given that, I can see nothing odd about saying "While men also can be viewed as technically weak, a woman in an office full of men must exercise special care to not give an impression of technical weakness".
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#45 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Are programmers smart?

Posted 24 February 2012 - 11:50 AM

from time to time i sit on my balls. i don't know what that means about my intelligence, but it doesn't feel very good.
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