The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

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#1 Kilorn  Icon User is offline

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The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 19 March 2012 - 08:33 AM

I came across this article on twitter posted by @DDReaper, the author of the article. I found it incredibly interesting and thought some more of you out there might want to give it a read.

http://dotnet.dzone....rwritten-truths
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#2 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 27 April 2012 - 01:39 PM

Yes. Very interesting. I was thinking of asking if anyone had heard any prospect of an XNA 5.0, since it's "about time" compared to the time between 3.0 and 4.0.

I think the guy named Adam in the comments probably had the right idea. Microsoft seems interested in encouraging game programing, especially for it's Windows Phone and XBox products. They know that if they are going to have a future in selling apps or operating systems for those apps, they're going to have to promote that platform and enourage developers.

Them not saying anything is pretty standard, although it's a little "ominous" if they stop talking about something they had been talking about, such as what was said about the MVPs.

It would not suprise me if they want to take a "quantum" leap and abandon XNA. What I mean is that it wouldn't suprise me if they have dreamed up a "new XNA" that's even better, but have had to burn down the old XNA and rebuild it from scratch. Microsoft has done the MANY times before. For example, they were ALL about ActiveX for the longest time, and then .Net came and it was basically "bye bye" ActiveX. But, in hindsight it was definately for the better. XNA seems like a really great product; so it's hard for me to imagine them dreaming up something better. But who knows.

But I think the Adam guy had the right idea about developing "game development skills" rather than worrying about the platform. If I spend a year or so more playing around with XNA, I'm actually starting to get close to being comfortable doing this in C++ with DirectX. C++ is "a little" different from C#, and those used to managed code may have a little bit of a learning curve with learning how to manage their code. But if you're really solid coding in C#, C++ is not "that" much more difficult and suprisingly similar. And I really think that if you're super solid in XNA programming, DirectX is not that much more difficult once you get comfortable in C++. And if you get there, you are WELL on your way to doing it like the pros do.

Still, I suspect Microsoft will either continue to support XNA, or come up with something better. And more than likely it will be in C#.
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#3 lesPaul456  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:45 AM

I've been doing a lot of Windows 8 development lately, and I was disappointing to see no XNA support :( It doesn't look like XNA will ever be supported either, unless it gets updated to DirectX 11.
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#4 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 07 May 2012 - 07:16 AM

View PostlesPaul456, on 04 May 2012 - 05:45 AM, said:

I've been doing a lot of Windows 8 development lately, and I was disappointing to see no XNA support :( It doesn't look like XNA will ever be supported either, unless it gets updated to DirectX 11.


That does sound disappointing. What do you mean that it isn't supported? Does it not work? Isn't Windows 8 still in beta? Is there a chance it will be supported when it's released? It's hard to imagine that Microsoft is ready to abandon Windows Phone; they must have some sort of way to write games for it.

I've read that they made major changes in XNA 4.0 so that they didn't have to make them later. That was probably written a while back, but it sounds to me like they were looking forward to DirectX 11.

But what's the reason that XNA doesn't work in Windows 8?
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#5 lesPaul456  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 07 May 2012 - 08:09 PM

Well in Windows 8 there's now these new metro style apps created using Silverlight or HTML/Javascript. These do not support XNA. However, there's still the desktop environment that supports anything that could run in Windows 7. So it is still supported to a small degree. Tablets would not support XNA at all.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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#6 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 06 June 2012 - 06:30 AM

I think I've just about figured this out. (At least in my own imagination. :turned: )

I think XNA is going bye-bye and being replaced with .Net. Here's what I've been able to piece together so far.

Going back through the whole history of this thing, the first version of Windows was just a DOS application. It drew to the screen using GDI (Graphics Device Interface) which was so unbelivably clunky that there was no way you could make anything more than the most simple games. Therefore, all the game developers refused to write games for Windows. Microsoft realized that games were a significant part of what sells Windows and realized they needed to fix the problem.

So, they invented DirectX, which was an add on that allowed programmers to have a seperate add-on to Windows that would give them direct control over the graphics card (hence the name). We've gotten very accustomed to DirectX and almost take it for granted these days.

But there has always been a problem for Microsoft there. First, DirectX was not really part of Windows itself. And that leads to the second problem. Windows programmers had no direct access to the graphics card for business apps and such. You just couldn't get to the graphics card without something like DirectX or OpenGL. Microsoft has been working to fix that problem for at least half a decade that I'm aware of. The answer was WPF and XAML (there's actually a name for the technology that replaced GDI. I saw it in an article this morning and now I've lost that article). The whole idea behind WPF was to give non-game applications the same access to the graphics card that DirectX has had all along for a much richer Windows experience for the business user. This has been in the works for years.

XNA came along because DirectX was just too intimidating for budding game programmers. XNA, as we all know, allowed programmers to essentially use DirectX through the XNA library and get results near what was attainable directly through DirectX.

Now Windows 8 is coming along with Visual Studio 2011(or is it 2012?) and WinRT. There seems to be pretty much unanimous agreement that Microsoft has quietly abandoned XNA. There's also concern that Windows is abandoning the traditional desktop program for the "Metro" app.

It just makes sense that MS would focus their business on their primary customers who want to use (Currently) low powered mobile devices. And that's obviously a big part of Metro. But I don't think they're forgetting about the power users either, which is partially proven by Windows 8 Pro edition.

Anyway, I've been trying to "read between the lines" of the information comming out of Microsoft. I don't have any insider information on this, I'm just guessing. But, it's looking to me like MS is integrating DirectX into Windows itself. And it's about time. It probably should have been part of Windows from the beginning. But I think the problem was that they would have to rebuild Windows practically from scratch to do that. And that brings us to Windows 8 where they've "practically rebuilt Windows from scratch".

Here, this guy who claims to be an MVP talks about how it seems to the MVPs that both XNA and DirectX are being neglected by Microsoft, or at least that Microsoft isn't talking to the MVPs about it.
http://ventspace.wor...-status-report/

But Microsoft has officialy said that DirectX 11.1 is going to be a big part of Windows 8 and Metro.

Anyway, what I'm seeing here is much tighter integration between Windows and DirectX. And I'm imaging that .Net will have much greater access to DirectX than in previous versions. In other words, I expect that a lot of the functionality that we currently get from XNA will no longer need to be seperate from C#, because DirectX is no longer seperate like it has been in the past. So, C# itself will be able to do a lot of what formerly required XNA.

I also think they may be going towards a C# and XAML approach that will replace XNA.

I found some interesting things here:
http://windowsteambl...e-sdk-pt-2.aspx

They're saying that Microsoft has invested serious time into how Windows Phone apps are going to be developed in Windows 8. It specifically says "we can't tell you much about what we're up to" but it still says this regarding SilverLight.

Quote

We’ve also heard some developers express concern about the long term future of Silverlight for Windows Phone. Please don’t panic; XAML and C#/VB.NET development in Windows 8 can be viewed as a direct evolution from today’s Silverlight. All of your managed programming skills are transferrable to building applications for Windows 8, and in many cases, much of your code will be transferrable as well.


Now it's talking about Silverlight. But keep in mind that they are also talking about Windows Phone development which has been a big part of why MS cares about XNA. They're saying XAML and C# are going to replace Silverlight, if I'm hearing that right. And that tells me that C# with XAML is going to have a lot of built in capability for Windows Phone developers.

I'm seeing even more over here:
http://blogs.msdn.co...nd-directx.aspx

Quote

Starting with Windows 8, DirectX SDK components are now included as part of the primary Windows SDK, and DirectX contains a host of new features such as a unified 3D API, improved 2D graphics and text performance with Direct2D, a rich image processing pipeline, and improved printing support.


Did you hear that? DirectX blending into Windows itself. That largely eliminates the need for XNA. Since the new DirectX will have the Input, Sound, Math, and other capabilites from XNA and it will be part of Windows itself, doesn't it just follow that .Net will have more direct access to those capabilities and that C# won't have any need of XNA anymore?

Quote

Everything in Windows 8 is optimized for and built around DirectX, from the developer platforms to...


Again, the developer platforms in Windows 8 are optimized for and built around DirectX. I'm not hearing that that's C++ specific. I'm hearing that DirectX is baked into Windows itself now and ALL languages will have access to it on one level or another.

Quote

This is where DirectX and XAML interop comes into play: you can now build your XAML UI using C#, Visual Basic or C++ and include C++ DirectX components. You may also be wondering about HTML/Javascript and DirectX – as mentioned earlier we’ve done a lot to bake the power of DirectX into the UI platforms, but for combining UI and native DirectX graphics we’ve focused on XAML for Windows 8.


So, DirectX and XAML are going to be more closely tied together. And you can build your XAML UI in C#. Now it does seem to be talking mostly about building business apps here and seems to suggest that you may want to join it with C++ code to get the full power of DirectX. But I'm still hearing "closer integration" between C# and DirectX.

Oh. I should also mention I heard a statement somewhere about games for Windows 8 could be developed in HTML 5 (which has sockets which will greatly improve the browser's capabilities as a gaming platform), or C#, or C++. Things are definately changing, but I suspect it's for the better.

Keep in mind that most of the "game" in XNA is really either in our code or in DirectX. XNA mostly just gave us easier access to DirectX. If .Net does that there isn't much need for XNA anymore.

And I think there's a pretty good preview here of what games are going to be like in Windows 8 under "Scenario #3 – SwapChainBackgroundPanel: DirectX with a XAML overlay". At the very least they're saying C++ programmers will write their DirectX apps through XAML to make Metro app games. I'm going to be suprised if C# doesn't have a similar method for developing games. After all, it's hard to believe that Microsoft doesn't see money to be made from making it easy for developers to write games for Windows 8 mobile devices.

PS - This link kind of gives and idea of some graphics programming WPF/XAML although it's obviously Windows 7 or before.


http://www.kindohm.c...F3DTutorial.htm

Oh! Almost forgot to post this one which talks about developing for XBox in Windows 8 and seems to suggest to me that this still may be a largely C# or .Net thing.

http://msdn.microsof...(v=vs.110).aspx

This post has been edited by BBeck: 06 June 2012 - 07:17 AM

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#7 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:51 PM

So far, they're not proving me wrong!

Check this out! It says the new Windows Phone OS has the same kernel/core as Windows 8, making it possible to directly port Windows games to the new Windows Phone!

They're also saying that games for Windows and Windows Phone are a major concern for Microsoft! I think that bodes well for us.

http://www.ingame.ms...-phone-8-838347

Well, I did find this and I don't really like what I'm hearing there, but I'm going to keep viewing it in the best light possible until they prove me wrong.

http://msdn.microsof...s/hh452744.aspx

http://msdn.microsof...s/apps/hh868271

This post has been edited by BBeck: 20 June 2012 - 08:27 PM

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#8 DanielLeone  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:15 AM

So the only language I've learnt, ever, is C# with XNA. Maybe from being a 'first time programmer' the idea of re-learning everything, and therefore re-developing everything comes across as daunting.

So if Windows 8 isn't really going to be supporting XNA(which is what I'm understanding) when does software such as this become redundant.

It takes a XNA project and in conjunction with another $400 piece of software, converts it ready for Android.

If XNA isn't going to be supported, won't it eventually get outdated, and just, die?

So do I go and learn C++ and DirectX, something that will hopefully last more than 1 year of me learning, before it becomes useless.

I don't particularly want to go learning another language. But thats because I've just finished an 'engine' with C# XNA. Then again, I definitely don't want to be left expanding knowledge on a Framework that is going to be left to rot.


Although, by learning C++, I won't have to spend $400, and can just use the NDK :).

Sorry if I've misunderstood anything :)
Daniel,

This post has been edited by DanielLeone: 11 July 2012 - 08:22 AM

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#9 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:24 AM

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So if Windows 8 isn't really going to be supporting XNA(which is what I'm understanding)

Sauce? (source/cite/where's this coming from MS?)
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#10 Kilorn  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:26 AM

I've read, although I can't remember where I saw it, that XNA is still supported for Windows 8, just no the Metro side of Windows 8. The desktop side still has full support for XNA and any projects made with it. I seriously doubt that Microsoft will abandon XNA, especially as indie games are becoming more and more popular due to the current condition of the AAA market.
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#11 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:12 AM

I've certainly gotten the impression that XNA is going "bye-bye" and has already been largely abandoned by Microsoft. That's from scouring the Internet for any information on the subject that I can find. One piece of evidence for that is that the MVPs don't seem to be getting any info on the future of XNA even though a new version of Windows and a new version of Visual Studio are coming out this year. Furthermore, the new version of Windows is Metro. Anything that isn't Metro is legacy and going the way of the dinosaur.

That being said, I've certainly heard that Windows 8 runs Windows XP/7/Vista apps as an app in Metro. So, "theoretically" it's 100% backwards compatiable. In other words, Microsoft has said many times that XNA programs and any program from a previous version of Windows will run under Windows 8, just not as a Metro app. In other words, it won't be a Windows 8 app, but it will still run the way Microsoft programs run on the Mac. Which makes sense. Windows 8 Metro is so radically different that there's no way to "magically" convert programs written for a previous version of Windows.

But on a brighter note, I mentioned in my previous posts in this thread that I can't imagine Microsoft just abandoning game development for beginning game programmers. They would be taking a huge risk if they did not compete against Apple's app store that has an enormous number of game apps written by small project game designers. I just can't see Microsoft saying, "We don't care if Windows phone and Windows tablets (Microsoft is building it's own hardware tablet now) don't support a large number of game apps." In fact, Microsoft is actually creating their own app store to compete head to head with Apple. It's hard to believe that games aren't an important part of that strategy.

I really wish that Microsoft were more clear on what their intent is here, but I think they're "going after Apple" with Windows 8 and are trying to keep it "Top Secret" until it's released and it's too late for Apple to do anything about it.

Microsoft has said that they are supporting game development for Windows Metro. They've just been incredibly vague about what exactly they're doing other than saying HTML5 is going to allow people to whip up games easily in Metro while C++ is going to allow serious professional Metro games.

Anyway, to Daniel's comment, I say "develop in XNA like crazy". I see development in XNA as a "learning experience" because XNA is SO much easier to learn than DirectX and C++ game programming (moreso for 3D and lessso for 2D).

Most of what you learn by programming XNA games is not XNA or C#. Things like "How to use vectors", "How to rotate a point", "How to animate sprites", "How to do collision detection", "How to implement physics", or about 90% of the topics in XNA game development, really have very little to do with XNA, C#, or any other language. Collision detection is collision detection whether it's in XNA, non-XNA C# (such as OpenGL in C#), C++, Java, Python, or whatever.

My point is that the time you spend programming games in XNA over the next 12 months will not be a wasted learning experience even if XNA were to "Magically" quit working 12 months from now. The reality is that current XNA 4.0 programs will probably continue to work as legacy apps in Windows 8 (and I would bet money that they will also work in Windows 9). I think Microsoft isn't going to make XNA 5.0 or an XNA that runs as a proper Metro app. But that doesn't mean that you can't write and run XNA 4.0 apps on the new version of Windows for the next few years.

But more importantly, it doesn't matter if Microsoft forces XNA programmers over to a new "paradigm" (haven't heard that word in awhile); the exprience gained from programming XNA games over the next year will largely be transferable to other languages or methodoligies.

I strongly suspect that XNA is going away. But I also strongly suspect that Microsoft has an even better replacement up their sleve. And two or three years from now we may wonder why anyone would even bother with XNA when there's so much better out there.

So, I have no intent on abandoning XNA until a better learning path for game programming is made clear, and that's probably not going to be at least until next year.

I really think Microsoft is going to give us something better than XNA, or at least something more appropriate for Metro. But in the mean time, I'm not too worried about it because I'm learning game programming techniques that will apply to any language I work in.

Oh, and as far as moving from C# to C++, it probably won't be as hard as you think. LOL Now that I think about it, I avoided learning C++ for years until I took a class in college (I started programming when I was 12). Then I also avoided learning C#, even though I already knew C++ at that point, because "I just didn't want to go through the huge learning curve of learning a new language". But then I looked at C# code and realized that I pretty much already know C# due to knowing C++ and VB.Net.

I guess what I'm saying is that once you know C# pretty well, it shouldn't be all that hard to learn C++. The hardest part is going to probably be learning to deal directly with computer memory such as using null terminated strings (having to work harder to use strings) and just the whole subject of pointers in general. That and C++ doesn't really currently have the awesome .Net library built right into it; so you either have to build a lot of the functionality yourself or learn something like STL for data structures such as Lists that are built into .Net. But knowing C#, will go a long ways towards helping learn C++. They are very similar.

This post has been edited by BBeck: 11 July 2012 - 09:20 AM

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#12 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:53 AM

View PostDanielLeone, on 11 July 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

So if Windows 8 isn't really going to be supporting XNA(which is what I'm understanding) when does software such as this become redundant.

If XNA isn't going to be supported, won't it eventually get outdated, and just, die?

So do I go and learn C++ and DirectX, something that will hopefully last more than 1 year of me learning, before it becomes useless.

Then again, I definitely don't want to be left expanding knowledge on a Framework that is going to be left to rot.


Yes. I think Mono will be made largely obsolete by Windows 8 once a large number of people start using Windows 8 (which may take a year or so, who knows). That could be two years from now before XNA becomes basically "obsolete". But XNA and Mono should work in Windows 8, just not as Windows 8 apps.

I'm going to guess, if someone wants to start taking bets, that what's going to happen is that DirectX will have unimaginable support in the new .Net that will be coming out with the new version of Visual Studio for Metro apps. So (I'm guessing) that you will be able to write C# games in C# and not even need XNA anymore to write Metro games. I wish Microsoft would just come out and say whether that's true or not, but I think DirectX's assimilation by Windows 8 is such a key part of their business strategy with Windows 8, that they don't want to risk "tipping off" Apple about what they're doing until it's time for Windows 8 to release.

If I'm right, that wouldn't be a huge learning curve for XNA programmers, because most of the C# parts would remain largely the same. Most of the changes would probably be similar to the changes between XNA 3.0 and XNA 4.0 where you had some substantial changes to the Draw method code.

I think Microsoft has pretty much already said "If you read between the lines a little" that what I just said is true, but what they haven't said is what you will be able to do in C#.Net for Metro apps. Will you be able to write rich 3D games in C# for Metro? They've said that you will be able to do that in C++ (which was pretty much a "given" in the first place). But all they've said about .Net is that you will be able to write games for Metro in .Net. That doesn't tell us whether the games you will be able to write are "text based games", "simple 2D games", "very simple 3D games", "the full extent of what you can do today in XNA", or something even more powerful. Microsoft's silence on what exactly you can program with .Net in Metro is the "scary" thing.

They've hinted that you will be able to do 2D games in .Net for Metro. But they've been ominously quite about what kind of support there will be for 3D.

Of course 3D is what I do, so that's what I'm "primarialy" concerned about. But 2D games are probably going to move away from XNA towards HTML5, since HTML5 supports things like sockets programming (networking). If you really want to remain relavent as a 2D game programmer, I'm thinking HTML5 game programming is something that you should definately be checking out, although I haven't checked it out myself to fully understand it. Microsoft has hinted that this will be the primary way to program simple 2D games for Windows going forward. That makes sense if HTML5 can handle the job and runs on all browsers for Linux, Mac, or Windows.

But they've also suggested that won't have the power for 3D or really complicated 2D.

Anyway, I strongly believe that C#.Net for Metro apps (coming in the next version of Visual Studio) will have enough power to do everything XNA does for 2D games without needing XNA. Microsoft has given a lot of reason (taked about in my previous posts on this thread) to believe that DirectX is becoming part of Windows itself in Windows 8. It would stand to reason that that means that DirectX will no longer be a seperate thing from Windows and that .Net will be able to tap directly into the functionality of DirectX because it will now just be another part of Windows itself. That suggests, at least, that C#.Net will no longer have any need for XNA for 2D apps (and hopefully for 3D as well, but I'm not sure.)

I mean consider this. You can do 2D apps without XNA in C# right now. So why did they create XNA then? Well, because to do it now you have to use GDI which is a relic from the DOS days about 2 generations (human generations) ago. GDI never worked well for games. Microsoft has made it pretty clear that Windows 8 is the death of GDI. They've made it pretty clear that what we now call DirectX (the solution to avoid using GDI) will now be part of Windows itself (It's about time!!! They probably should have integrated it into Windows back in Windows 95, but I guess it was too much of a shift to do it back then.) Microsoft has made it pretty clear that Windows itself (business apps like Word for example) will no longer use GDI but will handle their graphics directly now through what we used to call DirectX. How? Because what we now call DirectX will be part of Windows 8 and no longer a seperate thing.

So, I feel pretty confident that C#.Net in the next version of Visual Studio, will support writing 2D games without XNA. And that should be good news for XNA 2D developers. The only part that really worries me is the lack of comment from Microsoft on whether the new C#.Net will be able to do more than draw sprites on the screen; will it handle serious 3D? I imagine it will, but Microsoft just simply hasn't said one way or another yet. :-(
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#13 racidon  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 13 July 2012 - 09:47 AM

You know you could be reading too much into this. If microsoft came out and said "This is what everything will be like" then there'd be a lot less internet chatter about all of microsoft's products, it's a little like having a controversial tv add about your product. People will talk about that add and thus be talking about your product, word of mouth is the best advertisement =]
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#14 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 13 July 2012 - 10:38 AM

View Postracidon, on 13 July 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

You know you could be reading too much into this. If microsoft came out and said "This is what everything will be like" then there'd be a lot less internet chatter about all of microsoft's products, it's a little like having a controversial tv add about your product. People will talk about that add and thus be talking about your product, word of mouth is the best advertisement =]


That's a very good point, and I might think you're right about that if I didn't know Microsoft so well. But I think you're giving Microsoft way too much credit. They are not nearly as well organized as one would believe such a major player in the computer industry to be.

It's been their policy in the past to give MVPs and some developers knowledge of their products before they release with most things. Even Windows 8 is something that they are talking about already in many ways. I think you can already download it if you have an MSDN subscription (I think you can also already download the next Visual Studio too. I went and looked a couple of weeks ago for Visual Source Safe in my MSDN subscription and thought I saw them there, but can't say for certain without looking again.)


Generally, they want developers and MVPs to know what's about to happen so that they can start preparing for it. For example, they want the training books to hit the shelf at about the time the product is released. So, they generally let the insiders have a preview so that they can be ready to go with what they're doing at launch.

The ominous lack of communication regarding XNA seems to me that they just don't want to talk about it because they've already decided it's dead. But I also think that means they've got something better to replace it. The only reason I can think of that they wouldn't let the MVPs in on what that replacement is is that they don't want to tip off their competitors. Either that or it's just a bad management call as in they "forgot".

Of course, I'm just guessing. I don't have any more information on the subject than anyone else scouring the Internet other than previous interaction with Microsoft.

This post has been edited by BBeck: 13 July 2012 - 10:53 AM

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#15 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The Future of XNA - The Underwritten Truths

Posted 20 October 2012 - 07:43 AM

Looks like I may have been overly optimistic.

I came across thistoday from Charles Petzold on May 30th:

Quote

In short, if you want to code some sound or 3D graphics in a Metro style application, you'll need to use C++ for that job. As a C# guy, this does not make me happy. But it also tells me that I really need to maintain a fluency in C++ so that I can use the language when I need to.


He pretty much wrote the book on programming Windows in C++. For him to say you can't use C# to do sound or 3D graphics in Windows 8 is pretty much the "kiss of death". He's saying that about his book on Windows 8 apps in C#. So, he's pretty much the authority on the matter.

The only hope left, I think, is that Microsoft has some sort of game library/frame work (XNA 5.0?) under wraps that they are keeping ultra-secret in order to try and use it as a weapon in their war against Apple. But I'm really beginning to lose my optimism.
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