[superkb10]

So when I started programming, my mom told me that it would require very good math skills. However, so far, I haven't really found much that really requires high\-level thinking in math for programming. There is some logic, but I don't see anything that would require extremely high math. Or perhaps the logic and everything really is math and I'm just not realizing it? Anyone care to tell me how math is so important to programming?

[supersloth]

sigh.

[lordofduct]

no, we won't.

I think you should maybe get some experience in researching your questions before blathering on a forum.

[jon.kiparsky]

superkb10, on 10 April 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

Anyone care to tell me how math is so important to programming?

Maybe you should start here....

[superkb10]

I have done some research, and most people will say like "Finding distance between two places" or "Do an equation" but come on! That can't seriously count as using math in programming. That's just creating an equation, and then doing the operations in a programming language. That's like saying you need to have really good math skills to put stuff in a calculator. I have to say nowadays (we're past the age of programming in binary), it's really just figuring out the best way to do things, which really isn't using math, it's just using your own cleverness and ingenuity to find a way to make things work quicker, I mean, that's just how I see it. However, in the actual logic, in the actual concept of programming, I'm really not seeing how there's math in there. Unless someone would like to tell me why it is?

[creativecoding]

More like you need really good math skills in order to BUILD a calculator.

And what happens when something doesn't work? Do you just give up? Obviously you can't compare your result with what you should be getting because you are unable to calculate it yourself.

[jon.kiparsky]

Try reading through that thread I linked to... and some of the related threads... and some of the links from it...

We go over this periodically, you've just happened to ask this a few days after the most recent spasm. Bad luck.

[superkb10]

creativecoding

Well yes, but I could I could say you need to know how to program to use a computer, because someone had to create the computer by writing a program, then I could extend that further by saying I need to know how to program in binary because that's what all programming languages eventually convert to, then I could say I need to know how to build a computer because that's how you could read binary. I'm saying, why do we need math at this stage in programming languages, everything is already programmed in. The adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, and some languages have a special math library for things such as square roots. In the modern day languages, we don't need to use math all that much anymore.

Now don't get me wrong, I love math, but I just honestly don't see why it is such a widespread notion that high level math is required for programming.

jon I did read some of the post, and it still ends up bringing back to the same point, one of the top examples I see is finding a number at a certain point in a Fibonnanci sequence, and if I refer to my earlier post, this is all just like using a calculator, you could use an Excel Spreadsheet to do that!

I'm not very advanced yet in mathematics, I'm only in 7th grade so I'm sure there's still hugely complex stuff ahead, but I'm just saying, so far, I'm not really seeing why you need to know very complex math to do programming.

[BetaWar]

And of course video games don't use much math at all...

[jon.kiparsky]

Okay, well, you did take a look at the stuff I asked you to look at, so here's my view on this.

one hand: programming and math are both fundamentally about manipulating abstractions within a system of rules to achieve concrete results. At a high level, programming a math are very much the same sort of thing. Both are also closely related to ability in certain areas of music, particularly composition and improvisation, by the way. I propose that there are two consequences of this relationship. First, people who like and are interested in and good at any one of these will likely be attracted to the others, at least to some degree. Second, since these are similar skills, rehearsing any of them will serve to improve one's skills in the other, to a greater or lesser degree. Doing math, under this theory, would improve your abilities as a programmer. By "doing math" I'm thinking more of the advanced maths. Arithmetic, not so much. Applied calculus, not so much. But proving the tools of calculus, yes. Number theory? Yes indeed. Again: the better you are at manipulating abstractions in rule-based systems, the better you are at programming. This is a pet theory of mine, I have no research to back it up, take it as you like.

other hand: empirically, all of the people that I know who are very good programmers are also to some degree mathematicians. Doesn't go the other way, but there's a strong one-way correlation, in my experience between the two. I don't say it's diagnostic or causative or anything about the nature of the correlation, but I see it around me. Do what you like with that, as well.

As a side note, if you decide to pursue formal training in computer science, you will find that almost everything you learn will be tied back to and backed up by some serious math. Data structures and algorithms are analyzed and justified by mathematical arguments. You won't really care about that if you just want to use the existing tools, but if you want to understand why the tools work you'll have a much easier time of it if you can follow mathematical reasoning.

[creativecoding]

Yeah, and who wrote those functions and programs? Programmers. Programmers with a good math degree and a large paycheck.

And it's not really the simple equations anymore. Your job won't be "find the square root of X". Your job will be "create an algorithm to test the compatibility of two people" or "create a function to rank a webpage".

And there will be limitations. Some people will want you to use a certain language (yeah, this is where that assembly knowledge comes in hand). Some people won't let you use any third-party scripts.

What I think it really boils down to, though, is understanding how everything works. You need to know what these math functions are doing. You need to know why they work. What makes them work. What every line does. The ability to understand what everything is doing is pretty much one of the greatest skills you can have in programming.

[macosxnerd101]

I'm going to close this thread as we already have an existing thread on this topic, as well as existing threads linked to from resource threads.

Math resource thread
Is it possible to be a good programmer without being good in math?
Math and a programming career