[CTphpnwb]

Choscura, on 16 June 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

...that humans will not be at the controls or otherwise allowed to govern each other.

That's already begun. Citizens United has put machines (Corporations) firmly in control — as if they didn't have too much already! Of course, it will be messy here too because these machines can be controlled by anyone with enough cash: Communist China, Al Qaeda, etc.

We like to think that we have it better here but we're being controlled just as much. The difference is that these guys think they can control their people by limiting their speech where here they do it by drowning your speech in unlimited volumes of Corporate "speech".

[ishkabible]

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That's already begun. Citizens United has put machines (Corporations) firmly in control — as if they didn't have too much already! Of course, it will be messy here too because these machines can be controlled by anyone with enough cash: Communist China, Al Qaeda, etc.

Al Qaeda...really? you sound like the crazy conservatives that think everyone's out to get us so we should go to war with them except it's with corporations instead of countries.

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We like to think that we have it better here but we're being controlled just as much. The difference is that these guys think they can control their people by limiting their speech where here they do it by drowning your speech in unlimited volumes of Corporate "speech"

.

No amount of others free speech takes away my free speech. I don't have to do what the corporation says either. much like Reddit; I don't have to use their service. they aren't infringing on my rights

Yes, big business has been favored unfairly but stop spreading non-sense like it's their controlling us. that hasn't happened.

This post has been edited by ishkabible: 16 June 2012 - 09:18 AM

[CTphpnwb]

You have to if they make the laws!

As for Al Qaeda, remember that it was founded by a rich Saudi, and it makes billions of $ every year from the poppy trade. All they have to do is stop being stupid for a bit and redirect some of that money from buying guns to buying real power. It's not so far fetched that one of their leaders might not be an idiot.

[trevster344]

ishkabible, on 16 June 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

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That's already begun. Citizens United has put machines (Corporations) firmly in control — as if they didn't have too much already! Of course, it will be messy here too because these machines can be controlled by anyone with enough cash: Communist China, Al Qaeda, etc.

Al Qaeda...really? you sound like the crazy conservatives that think everyone's out to get us so we should go to war with them except it's with corporations instead of countries.

Quote

We like to think that we have it better here but we're being controlled just as much. The difference is that these guys think they can control their people by limiting their speech where here they do it by drowning your speech in unlimited volumes of Corporate "speech"

.

No amount of others free speech takes away my free speech. I don't have to do what the corporation says either. much like Reddit; I don't have to use their service. they aren't infringing on my rights

Yes, big business has been favored unfairly but stop spreading non-sense like it's their controlling us. that hasn't happened.

In America we are quite controlled lol.

[WolfCoder]

All I wanted was a Teiko sports watch!

[ishkabible]

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You have to if they make the laws!

conventionally they don't. government officials do...wait wait. I can see it now. you're going to say they bribe politicians aren't you? that's an issue with government, not corporations.

[trevster344]

In Texas corporations go hand in hand with lobbyists which means government. I'm sure they're not the only ones. better read up on Texas history.

This post has been edited by trevster344: 16 June 2012 - 11:36 AM

[ishkabible]

lobbyists != goverment. lobbyists convince government officials to vote a certain way or propose a bill(often that they write). they have a lot of influence over our law and that can be very bad but it's not like they're the ones signing the bills into law. if a very convincing back seat driver tells you to drive in the wrong lane, is it the back seat driver's fault? no, it's not.

This post has been edited by ishkabible: 16 June 2012 - 12:55 PM

[CTphpnwb]

ishkabible, on 16 June 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

lobbyists != goverment.

That's an idealistic and surprisingly naive view of things for you to take. The fact is that lobbyist often write the laws (ie, Stand your ground is nearly identical in states where it is law because the NRA wrote it.). We can't go around making government the bad guy and then be surprised that it's been emasculated and manipulated by powerful corporations.

As for bribery, that's business getting into government. Money === power in business, and power corrupts. No surprise there.

There was an interesting story on The Daily Show on Thursday about a corporation that mines phosphates in Iowa. Turns out they've been dumping waste into the rivers and now there are lots of two headed fish. Sport fisherman are pissed, but this corporation runs much of Iowa, and even has national pull. They've made the case to the EPA that limits on dumping need to be increased — despite the mutated fish. As a taxpayer you do have to live with the results, which will no doubt be higher taxes in the future when the government has to go in and clean up — we all know the corporation won't be required to do it! Of course, you're free to say anything you like about it, but you'll still have to pay.

[trevster344]

You're right they only have influence our law makers are strong willed they'd never sell out to the lobbying influence..

[ishkabible]

ok, we all agree that lobbyists have a ton of influence. we diverge at what the issue is. you say it's corporations that have too much money and that the defenseless congressmen are at no fault. I say that congressmen are responsible for what they do, not the lobbyists that influenced them(I know, I must be crazy). the solution is to fix the 535 people who are actually responsible not the people influencing them. I come back to the back seat driver, the person at the wheel is responsible, period. the lobbyists are not at the wheel. you can regulate the fuel for corruption all you want but it's the corruption that's the issue not the the perfectly legal fuel.

This post has been edited by ishkabible: 16 June 2012 - 02:44 PM

[Choscura]

[CTphpnwb]

ishkabible, on 16 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

ok, we all agree that lobbyists have a ton of influence. we diverge at what the issue is. you say it's corporations that have too much money and that the defenseless congressmen are at no fault. I say that congressmen are responsible for what they do, not the lobbyists that influenced them(I know, I must be crazy). the solution is to fix the 535 people who are actually responsible not the people influencing them. I come back to the back seat driver, the person at the wheel is responsible, period. the lobbyists are not at the wheel. you can regulate the fuel for corruption all you want but it's the corruption that's the issue not the the perfectly legal fuel.

That's because you've got your analogies wrong. First, your "back seat driver" isn't just telling them to drive in the wrong lane. They're doing so while holding a gun to their head. "Want to keep your job? Do as we say or watch your funding dry up along with your re-election chances."

The second is that the fuel is "legal." When a congressman takes a bribe there are two parties to blame and both should go to prison. The politician can't take a bribe unless one is offered. *** Note that I"m NOT saying the politician shouldn't be blamed. I'm saying that the problem is we only blame the politician, and that emboldens their co-conspirators to be even worse, and at this point they're far worse because they've gotten away with so much for so long! ***

Of course, what's legal is being decided by those offering the money, so we're back to wondering what's worse: Ethiopa and old-style crushing of rights, or the brave new world we have where our rights and they are unrestricted because they're irrelevant: say anything you like, but the poison will remain in the water, or where ever the corporation decided to dump it.

This post has been edited by CTphpnwb: 16 June 2012 - 09:36 PM

[ishkabible]

The solution is to regulate officials, not corporations. officials make decisions, not corporations. You regulate what officals can take and do, not people who are untimely not responsible.

[modi123_1]

So.. how does one regulate intent? If candidate A has just the money in his pockets to campaign, but candidate B is flush with Pharmacon money to campaign does it not stand to reason candidate B is more favorable to Pharmacon positions than candidate A? If B makes a vote for a policy or not is there some sort of on field review?

All of this is irrelevant with the 0.434% and larger social issues to be concerned with..