Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

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65 Replies - 5366 Views - Last Post: 19 June 2012 - 10:45 PM

#31 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 06:31 AM

View Postishkabible, on 17 June 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

The solution is to regulate officials, not corporations. officials make decisions, not corporations. You regulate what officals can take and do, not people who are untimely not responsible.

No, the people with the power ($$$) make the decisions, and so candidates are selected based on their pliability. Those who are "strong" enough to vote their conscience are not funded, and therefore do not win. You can only control the candidates by controlling the purse strings.

It's a big circle really: politicians set up regulations, regulations regulate corporations, and corporations take control by controlling the politicians. Why would corporations spend money on lobbying if it wasn't effective? The result is that you the tax payer are left with an illusion of freedom and no real power. You can't even stop them from polluting your state if they want to, which is why Iowa has two headed fish and Pennsylvania has tap water that can be lit with a match.

One more thing: Do you really want a system where people in charge of multibillion dollar corporations are not responsible? These are the people responsible for our food and medicine, the cars we drive, our energy, even the clothes we wear. Do you want them to make their decisions solely on profitability? So if they can save a few dollars by dumping toxic waste products in your back yard then that's ok?

This post has been edited by CTphpnwb: 17 June 2012 - 07:15 AM

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#32 ishkabible  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 08:34 AM

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Why would corporations spend money on lobbying if it wasn't effective?


I explicitly said it was effective and that that is frequently an issue. it gives people with more money an unequal representation.

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Do you really want a system where people in charge of multibillion dollar corporations are not responsible?


yes, I stated that. the people that make the actual decisions should be responsible. I don't want a multibillion dollar corporation to be any more responsible than me...you know like how I a republic is supposed to work where each person has equal representation to choose their representatives. isn't that what you want?

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One more thing: Do you really want a system where people in charge of multibillion dollar corporations are not responsible? These are the people responsible for our food and medicine, the cars we drive, our energy, even the clothes we wear. Do you want them to make their decisions solely on profitability? So if they can save a few dollars by dumping toxic waste products in your back yard then that's ok?


if they fuck up, they wont be around for long. that's how free markets work. if people keep buying items from certain companies that are doing bad things(like dumping toxic waste in their backyards) then people are saying that it's ok to dump toxic waste. how long do you think people will keep buying from them?
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#33 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:21 AM

View Postishkabible, on 17 June 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

if they fuck up, they wont be around for long. that's how free markets work. if people keep buying items from certain companies that are doing bad things(like dumping toxic waste in their backyards) then people are saying that it's ok to dump toxic waste. how long do you think people will keep buying from them?


... and this is why Phillip Morris is out of business ...

Fictional Scenario: Rumor has it that PM is adding cute puppy remains to its Marlboro cigarettes as a filler. PETA, ASPCA, ish, and millions of animal people worldwide call for a boycott of PM cigarettes.

That'll show 'em.

Surely they'll go belly-up if no one buys their cigarettes, right?

You can go home and crack a cold can of MGD, slap together a sandwich of Louis Rich cold cuts, Cracker Barrel cheese, and Miracle Whip. Then snuggle into your bed knowing you've made a difference in the world.

You can get up the next morning and sip your piping hot cup of Maxwell House and eat a bowl of Raisin Bran. Your kids, you are certain, would enjoy some Honeycomb and a CapriSun pouch. Maybe later, you'll make them some Jell-O with Cool Whip as a treat after they finish their Lunchables. "For dinner, perhaps some Stove Top stuffing or a box of shells and cheese," you think as you toss a Milk Bone to your dog and light a smoke from a pack of Chesterfields.

Your good deed is done.

Now guess who owns MGD and Louis Rich and Cracker Barrel and Miracle Whip and Maxwell House and Raisin Bran and Honeycomb and CapriSun and Jell-O and Cool Whip and Lunchables and Stove Top and Velveeta and Milk Bone and Chesterfield?

People keep buying items from Phillip Morris because they don't know those items are Phillip Morris. Who looks at a pack of Jet-Puffed Marshmallows or Kool-Aid and says, "Mmm... Virginia Slims"?
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#34 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:03 PM

ConAgra owns all the microwave popcorn brands. Illusion of choice. Delicious.
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#35 Choscura  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 12:45 PM

My father's PhD thesis was about the coopetition between Coke and Pepsi that resulted in every other cola being muscled out of the biggest markets, leaving them virtually the whole market share. I think the exception was RC Cola, which broke into Israel by marketing itself as "the drink of choice for Americans" or something like that.

Competition is necessary, but competition alone doesn't mean that you'll get anything different from what you have now.
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#36 ishkabible  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:55 PM

B9: I would think it would be on a more product by product basis, not a person who owns the product basis. yes, it's not going to be perfect but I can't say the FDA or EPA are perfect either.
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#37 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:30 PM

If the corporation is dumping in your backyard, what good does it do to boycott the product? The corporation still exists. They're still dumping. They'll continue to dump because they have other products to sustain them.. and an entire department dedicated to creating new products... and another department dedicated to downplaying the damage they're creating. Need we delve in Marcellus Shale gas drilling and the television ads declaring fracking to be "safe" while there are many, many people - in some cases entire towns - without potable water as a result of these "safe" drilling practices?
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#38 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:43 PM

If BP can rape the ocean, & GoDaddy supports SOPA & shows videos of them hunting Elephants from a helicopter, & neither of them fold, then some companies are simply untouchable imo.
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#39 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:33 AM

View Postishkabible, on 17 June 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

B9: I would think it would be on a more product by product basis, not a person who owns the product basis. yes, it's not going to be perfect but I can't say the FDA or EPA are perfect either.

Even on a product by product basis your thesis fails. Cigarettes kill. We've known this for at least 40 years. They're still around and there's little indication they won't still be around in another 40 years. Market forces only help producers plan production levels. They have nothing to do with prosperity, freedom, quality, or any of the things we're fed on Fox News or CNBC.

Now, about the "free market" you think does or has existed at some point: it doesn't. First, there's the illusion of choice mentioned above, then there's the massive amounts of lobbying which guarantee that there is no chance that "each person has equal representation" because virtually all of the representation goes to large, multinational corporations. Next, we have Communist China, which clearly has taken an embrace and extinguish policy towards "Capitalism" whereby they manipulate their currency so American workers have to compete with $2/hr labor while paying First world prices. Add to that their subsidizing exports and it's a wonder that most Americans don't see their actions as acts of war. Well, not really, because that benefits large, multinational corporations (cheap labor and high prices == large profits) so they distract you with claims of this economy being "Free Market" so we shouldn't tax imports or do anything else that might actually protect our interests.
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#40 Kilorn  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:41 AM

In this thread: Americans debating what's best for the people of a country that most of them will never visit.

Also in this thread: People debating the evil corporations of the world and their negative effects on the markets in which they've risen to power.
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#41 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:48 AM

You missed one. I'm arguing that the two are eerily similar. Ethiopia's crack down on civil rights is likely motivated by religion while we're handing over our rights to our new Lords: major corporations.
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#42 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:02 PM

View PostKYA, on 17 June 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

ConAgra owns all the microwave popcorn brands. Illusion of choice. Delicious.


Then how come some of the brands of bags come out all undercooked and others don't?
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#43 ishkabible  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 12:57 PM

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Even on a product by product basis your thesis fails. Cigarettes kill. We've known this for at least 40 years. They're still around and there's little indication they won't still be around in another 40 years. Market forces only help producers plan production levels. They have nothing to do with prosperity, freedom, quality, or any of the things we're fed on Fox News or CNBC.


I don't understand how my thesis fails here. People using cigarets have decided that the product is more valuable than the health they loose from using them.

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Now, about the "free market" you think does or has existed at some point:

I never said it did exist. Something close to it existed in America in the first 70 years or so but that's long gone. I wish it did exist, or was closer to existing.

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then there's the massive amounts of lobbying which guarantee that there is no chance that "each person has equal representation" because virtually all of the representation goes to large, multinational corporations


agreed; I just say the solution is to regulate more strictly what government officials can do. you say the solution is to regulate what people and corporations can do. your campaign finance issue breaks down when no one can have the campaign money. then everyone's on a level playing field and everyone's vote is equal. a republic only works of people have equal representation.

but whatever, no one is changing anyone's mind here. this is all pointless
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#44 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:07 PM

But you guys are so close to solving the problem, don't stop now.
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#45 ishkabible  Icon User is offline

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Re: Ethiopia criminalizes VoIP; crushes personal freedoms

Posted 18 June 2012 - 01:16 PM

I might have a second wind but don't count on it ;)
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