Microsoft Surface

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178 Replies - 10625 Views - Last Post: 11 February 2013 - 06:52 AM

#61 Atli  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:42 PM

I personally don't get the appeal of these things. Buuut, whatever. What is another useless piece of tech at this point, right?

Just keep the golden rule in mind... It's Microsoft: wait for Service Pack 1!
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#62 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:44 PM

View PostKilorn, on 21 June 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Posted Image



Thank you! Exactly my point. People don't rally around every product every time. The world rallied around Windows for whatever reason. But they don't see Microsoft as a DEVICE innovator.

Apple did its best to create a PDA niche too. But the Apple Newton just never took off. Such is life. R&D is a dart game with the lights off.

But all you've really pointed out is that people don't rally around the Microsoft devices and they do rally around Apple devices. Thanks for that!

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 21 June 2012 - 05:45 PM

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#63 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 21 June 2012 - 10:43 PM

except for the years and years in which they didn't until they finally did.
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#64 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:44 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 21 June 2012 - 07:44 PM, said:

Thank you! Exactly my point. People don't rally around every product every time. The world rallied around Windows for whatever reason. But they don't see Microsoft as a DEVICE innovator.

Apple did its best to create a PDA niche too. But the Apple Newton just never took off. Such is life. R&D is a dart game with the lights off.

But all you've really pointed out is that people don't rally around the Microsoft devices and they do rally around Apple devices. Thanks for that!


Umm... wouldn't that image in and of itself mean people are also rallying around Microsoft? The very act of creating it means they are supporting Microsoft.

If you want to get technical. It's probably more descriptive to say Apple knows how to take existing inventions and clean the design up, market it well, and use it's clout to get it to the masses. I wouldn't exactly call that inventing, I'd call that marketing and great salesmanship.

And being the cynical prick I am... I hate salesman. Just a thing I have, I think they're sleazy. Yeah, they serve a purpose... just not for me is all.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 22 June 2012 - 06:44 AM

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#65 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:36 AM

View Postlordofduct, on 22 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

Umm... wouldn't that image in and of itself mean people are also rallying around Microsoft? The very act of creating it means they are supporting Microsoft.

I think there is a lot of ground between 'Supporting Microsoft' and 'Bashing on Apple'.
I think that image is more about bashing on Apple. We'll see if they support Microsoft when the sales figures are released after the product hits the market.

View Postlordofduct, on 22 June 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

If you want to get technical. It's probably more descriptive to say Apple knows how to take existing inventions and clean the design up, market it well, and use it's clout to get it to the masses. I wouldn't exactly call that inventing, I'd call that marketing and great salesmanship.


Isn't that true of most products? Porche didn't invent the car. They are just building on the collective works of their predecessors. I think the difference here is that Apple is mostly building on top of their own works. There is a clear line from the first click-wheel iPod, to the iPhone with iPod as a app, to the iPad.


I think they did a lot more than clean and repackage. For one they built an OS aimed for their portable devices... Envisioned a completely new interaction model with gestures and multi-touch. They realized the shortcomings of the accepted hardware like mechanical hard drives and made use of solid state. They didn't invent solid state drive tech: But they were the first to successfully put it to that type of use in a mainstream product. To be fair I think the iPad didn't involve a lot of inventing either. They really just biggie-sized the iPodTouch. But since that was also one of their devices I think its fair to say they created this market.

Where it diverges from the pack and that early MS Tablet is in several key areas. Foremost is that it is not a tablet as we consider them today. It is a laptop that has been stripped down, and that's what people saw: More money for 'lacking' laptop. They didn't create a new kind of device, thus didn't create a new kind of market.

Interaction: The full WinXP on that is still mouse based and relies heavy on right-clicking etc which is hard and unnatural in the standard touch-screen of the time.
Features: They really just made a stripped down laptop. Which means it lost lots of features but gained nothing new to compensate.
Power: To shoe-horn a full computer into this form factor in those days meant no processing power, little ram, micro hard drives etc. At best this was a note taking machine for students.
Accessory bulk: With no support for syncing like a modern tablet you still needed an optical drive... which meant an external device and cables...
Booting. This was still a device that had to boot. There was no instant-on like a iPad or a Galaxy. People won't put up with that for a device that is supposed to be aimed at instant and convenient use.

I think it suffered the same problem that Apple did with their Duo line of laptops: A decent niche product that the public just didn't 'get'. I liked the Duo's. A laptop with a purpose built docking station that I could have at home and work, that automatically connected to my peripherals! Hooraa! But the cost was high, the niche was too small, and not enough people 'got' it. In many ways both of these products were examples of ideas that were ahead of their time because the hardware to fully realize the vision didn't yet exist.

I think a lot of people still don't quite get the idea behind tablets. They keep wanting all the features of a laptop. Its not meant to be a laptop. If you want all that, get a laptop.
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#66 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:53 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 22 June 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Isn't that true of most products? Porche didn't invent the car. They are just building on the collective works of their predecessors. I think the difference here is that Apple is mostly building on top of their own works. There is a clear line from the first click-wheel iPod, to the iPhone with iPod as a app, to the iPad.


And guess what, most people don't say Porsche invented the car either.

See I believe there is a difference between taking different ideas, bring them together, and coming up with a new idea out of it. That's invention. And that which Apple does.

Taking an existing idea, working out some of the kinks in it, and marketing it well... that's not invention. That's just making something better.

And taking one of said products, and making it better from model to model... well that's just iteration and improvement. Still not invention.

An invention? The stop-light. Taking the existing ideas of electricity, lamps, and coloured filters... putting them together... and creating an automatic signal to replace the stop sign and/or cross guard. It fulfills a similar job, but is actually a completely new thing.

The tablet by Apple was not new, there was no other technologies combined together to create a new product unique and all its own. The idea pre-existed.

The mp3, mp3 player, and mp3 market existed prior to the ipod, itunes, and the itunes store. Only difference is they were able to make it popular. That's not NEW, that's just SUCCESSFUL.

Which is fine, it's good, great on Apple for that. They are a successful company who creates products that are highly desirable by a lot of people. I have NO beef with them for being a company creating products... I personally don't like the products myself, but hey, I don't have to buy them. I'm just pointing out that the did not invent these things that are claimed to be their invention.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 22 June 2012 - 08:05 AM

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#67 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:06 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 22 June 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Isn't that true of most products? Porche didn't invent the car. They are just building on the collective works of their predecessors. I think the difference here is that Apple is mostly building on top of their own works. There is a clear line from the first click-wheel iPod, to the iPhone with iPod as a app, to the iPad.


... and from the early mp3 players to the first click-wheel iPod. The iPod's design was definitely attention-getting, but the killer part of that deal was the distribution channel. A lot of people had tried, but Apple made it work, and killed the record store. The physical device was pretty slick, but it was essentially a refinement of existing devices. Without the store, it would not have had the impact it did.


View Postlordofduct, on 22 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

An invention? The stop-light. Taking the existing ideas of electricity, lamps, and coloured filters... putting them together... and creating an automatic signal to replace the stop sign and/or cross guard. It fulfills a similar job, but is actually NEW.


There were mechanical traffic signals before the ones that used electric lights, used both for trains and for automobiles. The use of lights was a gradual modification - iteration and improvement.
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#68 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:08 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 22 June 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

View Postlordofduct, on 22 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

An invention? The stop-light. Taking the existing ideas of electricity, lamps, and coloured filters... putting them together... and creating an automatic signal to replace the stop sign and/or cross guard. It fulfills a similar job, but is actually NEW.


There were mechanical traffic signals before the ones that used electric lights, used both for trains and for automobiles. The use of lights was a gradual modification - iteration and improvement.


I should have left out the electric part. You're correct... but a "automatic signal" was an invention.
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#69 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:20 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 22 June 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

but the killer part of that deal was the distribution channel. A lot of people had tried, but Apple made it work, and killed the record store.


The same trend came with iBooks and Kindle. eBooks are killing off printed books. I don't have a single printed book or magazine any more.
Digital Textbooks will replace printed.
And digital cameras killing off film which in turn kills the supporting businesses like film processing. When was the last time you saw a "Fotomat" booth in the parking lot?
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#70 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:24 AM

I suspect you could trace them back. The automotive signal, I think, derives from the railroad semaphore signals, which would have originally been manually operated.

The point I'm getting at is, if you want to talk about innovative products, you're usually finding something that changes just the right thing, or just a few right things. You're not finding something that changes "everything" because nobody wants everything changed. Some things have been gotten pretty right, ie they keys go on the top of the keyboard, not the bottom, and some things are pretty well accepted conventions, ie QWERTY. An innovative keyboard assumes things for both of those reasons and maybe splits the keys into left and right hand clusters, or angles them differently - it changes one thing.

So yes, the traffic light was an innovation - but it was not a new invention from out of nowhere. It was based on reasonable design constraints and existing conventions, as all innovations do. When you observe that Einstein's miracle year papers are all based firmly on the work of his forebears, that is not to denigrate his work.

I think on the same logic, it's possible to agree that Apple's design for the mePod was innovative, even while we agree (and it's impossible to disagree) that it was transparently based on work that came before.
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#71 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:40 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 22 June 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

and some things are pretty well accepted conventions, ie QWERTY. An innovative keyboard assumes things for both of those reasons and maybe splits the keys into left and right hand clusters, or angles them differently - it changes one thing.


That's a great example of how something may not actually be the best available but has stuck through convention or sheer size of the existing customer base.

The QWERTY layout was designed to purposely slow down typists so the striking arms hitting the ribbon wouldn't get stuck and jam.
Attached Image

Yet here we are 100 years later still using that layout instead of the Dvorak that was designed to speed up typists and reduce strain.
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#72 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:44 AM

View Postmodi123_1, on 19 June 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

No one knows yet.. my guess is 400 and 800.


I'm guessing that both are on the low end there. The basic model is competing with the iPad. So, probably about $500. Maybe $400 if they're willing to lose money to break into the market (which they usually are).

The Pro version will probably be $999+. It's an Ultrabook + tablet all in one. It's going to cost as much as the average Ultrabook, you can bet.
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#73 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 08:56 AM

I'm sure we could argue Dvorak and QWERTY all day, but it wouldn't make a difference to anyone. QWERTY is even used on the virtual keyboard on your mobile - why? You can't touch type on it, it's a completely inane idea, but there it is. Momentum.
The point is that unless your specific area of innovation is in key layout, you're not going to change the key layout. Almost everything stays the same. If you're making a new model of car that works better in some fundamental way, you're not going to move the pedals around and replace the steering wheel with a tiller.
If you think cars should be steered with a tiller, on the other hand, you're going to put a tiller on a car that is otherwise standard, or sell steering-wheel-to-tiller conversion kits or something.
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#74 Utael  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:03 PM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 22 June 2012 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm sure we could argue Dvorak and QWERTY all day, but it wouldn't make a difference to anyone. QWERTY is even used on the virtual keyboard on your mobile - why? You can't touch type on it, it's a completely inane idea, but there it is. Momentum.
The point is that unless your specific area of innovation is in key layout, you're not going to change the key layout. Almost everything stays the same. If you're making a new model of car that works better in some fundamental way, you're not going to move the pedals around and replace the steering wheel with a tiller.
If you think cars should be steered with a tiller, on the other hand, you're going to put a tiller on a car that is otherwise standard, or sell steering-wheel-to-tiller conversion kits or something.


The reason its still there is the masses have learned qwerty, not Dvorak. Why reteach if your competitor will still use the old style? It originated from typists, transitioned to computer keyboards (for the purpose of easing into the typists market) and once that took hold why change it?

Gasoline automobiles are similar in the aspect of why change something that works and is ingrained?


I think people, such as news groups and media outlets need to stop trying to find the Product killers. No one product will dominate, its been proven time and time again. One may have a major hold on the market but they wont have the total hold. I just hope this works out for everyone and gets apple to finally realize they can't sit on their high horse and say oh if we add voice capability we don't have to change the hardware...
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#75 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Microsoft Surface

Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:30 PM

View PostUtael, on 22 June 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

The reason its still there is the masses have learned qwerty, not Dvorak. Why reteach if your competitor will still use the old style? It originated from typists, transitioned to computer keyboards (for the purpose of easing into the typists market) and once that took hold why change it?


Yes, I think that's exactly what I said. Accepted conventions, momentum.
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