Why is programming is frustation and hard

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26 Replies - 1854 Views - Last Post: 28 June 2012 - 09:02 PM Rate Topic: -----

#16 anonymouscodder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 05:31 AM

View PostGame_Creator, on 22 June 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

1. The first programming language I learned was HTML.

HTML is not a programming language
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#17 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:08 AM

View Postanonymouscodder, on 27 June 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

View PostGame_Creator, on 22 June 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

1. The first programming language I learned was HTML.

HTML is not a programming language


Don't you worry that revealing your deep-seated insecurities about your abilities as a programmer will make people laugh at you? I know it did for me.

Fine, HTML doesn't have decision branching or looping. You can't use it to solve math problems. Great, if it makes you feel better about yourself, it's not a Real Programming Language. But really, that's a pretty arbitrary sort of line to draw, isn't it? After all, if you consider the current development exemplified by python and such - the path back to Lisp, basically - explicit loops are being pushed further and further down into the code, and could easily become obsolete in tomorrow's high-level languages - that's the point of constructions like filter and map and reduce. They allow the programmer to work directly on the data, rather than directing traffic and controlling flow. Which is, of course, exactly what HTML does.

As a Real Programmer who only uses Real Languages, I see HTML as basically a somewhat hacked-up DSL - just another way to express intent to the machine. Since programming is basically the knack of expressing intent, your position, to me, seems entirely indefensible unless you can convince someone to accept your chosen authorities as authoritative.
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#18 cfoley  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:53 AM

I don't know, Jon. I would say HTML lies firmly in the "not a programming language" category and I think most programmers agree. Branching and looping are pretty important, even if the trend is to replace them with higher level constructs. When all is said and done, these higher level constructs boil down to branching and looping, weather it is folding instead of for-ing or using polymorphic behaviour instead of switching.

Does any of this matter to the current debate? Of course not (which I think was your main point). HTML is a computer language with its own rules. As Game_Creator points out, if you miss a comma, your code won't work. From this perspective, it shares a lot with programming languages and that's enough to make it relevant in the context of this thread.
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#19 baavgai  Icon User is online

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:20 AM

HTML != Programming Language. Jon, why so defensive? We've actually beaten the crap out of this one before. It is simply a fact, based on most accepted definitions.

HTML == Markup Language. In a sense, it's also an interpreted language; the browser being the interpreter. Curiously, XSLT, using the same declarative markup roots, is a programming language.

It's a reasonable distinction to make. If someone says "I program in HTML" it really doesn't do them in favors in the real world. If, instead, they say "I'm well versed in HTML and have used Javascript to implement dynamic content" they come off much better.
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#20 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:26 AM

View Postcfoley, on 27 June 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I don't know, Jon. I would say HTML lies firmly in the "not a programming language" category and I think most programmers agree. Branching and looping are pretty important, even if the trend is to replace them with higher level constructs. When all is said and done, these higher level constructs boil down to branching and looping, weather it is folding instead of for-ing or using polymorphic behaviour instead of switching.


I admit there was a bit of sleight of hand there, but I think the point is still sound: as languages become more high-level, they allow the programmer to think more about logic and less about the mechanics of both the problem and the solution. That means you're looking more at the data - with pre-built data structures, iterators, filters, and so forth - and less at explicitly telling the computer how to navigate those data structures.
That is, they start to look more like HTML and less like C.
I still think there's a lot of benefit to learning to solve problems with C, but that doesn't mean we run down python - or HTML.

Quote

Does any of this matter to the current debate? Of course not (which I think was your main point). HTML is a computer language with its own rules. As Game_Creator points out, if you miss a comma, your code won't work. From this perspective, it shares a lot with programming languages and that's enough to make it relevant in the context of this thread.


Bingo. If you learned HTML first, it was your first programming language - that's how I see it, anyway. Quibbling over whether it's a "real" programming language seems pedantic foolishness to me.
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#21 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:08 AM

View Postbaavgai, on 27 June 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

HTML != Programming Language. Jon, why so defensive? We've actually beaten the crap out of this one before. It is simply a fact, based on most accepted definitions.

HTML == Markup Language. In a sense, it's also an interpreted language; the browser being the interpreter. Curiously, XSLT, using the same declarative markup roots, is a programming language.

It's a reasonable distinction to make. If someone says "I program in HTML" it really doesn't do them in favors in the real world. If, instead, they say "I'm well versed in HTML and have used Javascript to implement dynamic content" they come off much better.


Defensive? Hardly - I actually don't do any HTML at all, haven't in at least ten years. If you asked me to design a web site, I'd be lost. (hmmm...)

I admit that the question comes to mind partly because I only ever see it come up when apparently mediocre programmers need something to feel smug about. (I assume that they're mediocre, because people with skills generally don't need to go looking for things to feel smug about - they have skills) But as I try to justify it in my mind, it seems more and more an arbitrary distinction and less and less useful.

What useful purpose does it serve to sneer that "HTML is not a programming language", other than a bit of self-stroking? And if it's just someone being rude in order to feel better about themselves, I feel plenty justified in making them work a bit for their ego boost.
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#22 GWatt  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:28 AM

In the broadest sense a program exists to process data. If you think of the program as an interpreter then the data you are feeding it becomes a program.
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#23 anonymouscodder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:42 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 27 June 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

View Postanonymouscodder, on 27 June 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

View PostGame_Creator, on 22 June 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

1. The first programming language I learned was HTML.

HTML is not a programming language


Don't you worry that revealing your deep-seated insecurities about your abilities as a programmer will make people laugh at you? I know it did for me.

Fine, HTML doesn't have decision branching or looping. You can't use it to solve math problems. Great, if it makes you feel better about yourself, it's not a Real Programming Language. But really, that's a pretty arbitrary sort of line to draw, isn't it? After all, if you consider the current development exemplified by python and such - the path back to Lisp, basically - explicit loops are being pushed further and further down into the code, and could easily become obsolete in tomorrow's high-level languages - that's the point of constructions like filter and map and reduce. They allow the programmer to work directly on the data, rather than directing traffic and controlling flow. Which is, of course, exactly what HTML does.

As a Real Programmer who only uses Real Languages, I see HTML as basically a somewhat hacked-up DSL - just another way to express intent to the machine. Since programming is basically the knack of expressing intent, your position, to me, seems entirely indefensible unless you can convince someone to accept your chosen authorities as authoritative.


First off, I didn't mean to be rude, if I did, I'm sorry.

Second, I still think that HTML is far from programming. When you 'play' around with HTML you end up programming, that's nice, but still, HTML is not programming.

Defining programming as simple 'Express intent to the machine' looks pretty wrong to me too. So, if I change my text to bold by clicking in the bold button while using Microsoft Word am I a programmer since I changed the markup of the generated file? Expressing intent to the machine seems to me purely as (user)interface.

You implying things that, god, I never meant to imply. You got it emotional, overreacted. You made your point, it's pretty valid, but there is no debate here since I imply nothing when someone says that it started with HTML, just wanted to pointed out that HTML is not considered a programming language (maybe he knows that, but if he doesn't I'm glad I pointed it out).
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#24 baavgai  Icon User is online

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:57 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 27 June 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

What useful purpose does it serve to sneer that "HTML is not a programming language", other than a bit of self-stroking?


I don't think the comment you're reacting to carried a sneer. For computer geeks, there is often a compulsive need to apply the "correct" definition to things.

I must admit, my reaction to "first programming language was HTML" was two fold. My first thought was, "but, but, that's not a programming language!" My second thought was, "in this instance, it probably won't be useful to point that out." We know what's meant; "this is where I started with computers." From that perspective, it's a reasonable answer.

However, I understand the need to point it out, too. :P
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#25 carnivroar  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 11:00 AM

:offtopic:
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#26 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:30 PM

View Postbaavgai, on 27 June 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 27 June 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

What useful purpose does it serve to sneer that "HTML is not a programming language", other than a bit of self-stroking?


I don't think the comment you're reacting to carried a sneer. For computer geeks, there is often a compulsive need to apply the "correct" definition to things.


Yes, usually as a matter of one-upsmanship. Geeks also like to pursue spurious precision and useless and harmful optimizations. I don't think these are things that should be encouraged, especially when they're used to denigrate someone else who's just trying to join in the conversation. "The first programming language I learned was HTML" is pretty clear, I think - even if you think it's incorrect, there's not a lot of point served in quibbling about it.

Anyway, I don't see any need to grind this any further into the ground. As carnivroar points out, we're straying a little from the original topic.
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#27 Benzoate  Icon User is offline

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Re: Why is programming is frustation and hard

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:02 PM

1. what programming language did you start with?
2. Was it hard at first, were you frustated, or did it became easier, i know you have to memorize every single capilaztion, seems hard right?
3. are there programming classes in high-school?
4. Is Java a good language to learn after Lua?
5. Please tell me your programming story from beginning to end, including how you felt and what language you started with, include details)
6. How did you learn your programming language? (it can be any language, but Lua is prefarable)

The language I started with was HTML, but I started java programming about the same time... so technically the first programming language I learned was Java

Yes, it was hard at first, but I found a lot of good tutorials, and this website :)

At my high school, last school year was the first time I had the chance to take a programming class, because no one else was interested in it, so I took Web Design and Game Design online (Game Design wasn't really programming though, more of the processes that go into making a game), but this school year I am taking Java Programming online :)

I never learned Lua so I couldn't tell you

I first decided I wanted to be a programmer after the first Fable and Halo games came out. Those games really inspired me, but until a couple years ago, I always thought that I would have to wait till college to learn programming. Then one day I was playing Minecraft... and I really wanted some kind of mod and I couldn't find it anywhere... So I found out Minecraft was made in java... and I decided I'd try and look up some tutorials... After that I eventually got to the point where I was tired of mod dev and started trying to make other things with java, I started out with simple text based cmd programs, then I moved up to GUI :) Now I am learning Android App Dev through a book my mother bought me :). When I first began programming, I was really discouraged because people that I told what I was doing to weren't all that supportive, besides my family.. And I kept making stupid mistakes, and lots of them in my code. But, as I got better I felt better about my skill and people stopped being so discouraging and actually thought some stuff I randomly did was kind of cool, even though I am still learning A LOT daily.. I feel good about my skill at this point, of course I make mistakes... EX: I misplaced an '=' mark in my code last week, and it took me 4 hours to figure it out, thanks to this website I found out my problem... Times like that are always REALLY ANNOYING but you will work through it... But always stick to what you have a passion for :)

I learned what I know from tutorials, looking through code I find online, and posting questions in the relevant forum on this website :)
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