Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

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#1 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:34 AM

Just to gather in all of the inevitable flamage in one convenient location:

What do you all think of the Obamacare ruling?

End of America? Beginning of a new dawn? Haven't read it yet?

(I'm still on "haven't read it yet", myself...)


The ruling:

http://www.nytimes.c...cotus-docs.html

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 28 June 2012 - 09:49 AM


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#2 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:42 AM

Saw the update, haven't read much, too busy at work.
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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:44 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 28 June 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

(I'm still on "haven't read it yet", myself...)


This.
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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:12 AM

The butthurt levels are outrageous.
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#5 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 08:16 AM

Well, I made the mistake of posting something about this in the other thread and B9 pointed me here.

My short summary:
  • We need a healthcare overhaul badly
  • This isn't the way to do it.
  • This ruling just gave Congress a precedent to force individuals to pay for all kinds of shit with the benefit that it's not called a tax (politicians will be all over this like flies on shit)
  • The fundamental relationship between the citizens on their government just lurched way over to the government side today.

..and John Roberts...good God...I'm betting there are Republican heads asploding all across the land with his opinion on this.
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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:21 AM

Quote

I'm betting there are Republican heads asploding all across the land with his opinion on this.

Don't worry - for every head that a'splodes now there are two or three that are rubbing their hands in glee at the new potential exploit this gap creates post the election.
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#7 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:37 AM

That's my biggest concern, by far, now with this. I mean, the government has always been able to impose a tax on you as a citizen. Sales tax, income tax, various sin taxes, etc. But all those taxes had one thing in common: the citizen had a choice as to whether to engage in the activity being taxed if they didn't want to pay the government tax. Don't want to pay income tax? Don't work legally. Don't wanna pay a sales tax? Don't buy shit. But with this mandate that you MUST buy health insurance, there is no way to avoid this because the prerequisite condition the government is taxing...is you being alive.

This seems like a small distinction but with the way Roberts worded his opinion it can be a catastrophe if Congress moves to exploit it. The precedent has been effectively set: the government can, in fact, force an individual to proactively engage in a commercial activity or suffer a penalty. That is a remarkable extension of the power of government over the individual and there are those who are welcoming this with wide open arms.

The Kelo decision a few years back pretty much told us all that anything we own that the government wants, it can take. Effectively, the notion of private property was in peril and if your locale didn't pass a subsequent law affirming your private property rights (many states and municipalities did) then any level of government could legally seize your personal property and resell it saying that the proceeds from such were a benefit to the community.

This ruling is much the same thing as per individual freedoms. Never before has a government entity at any level had the inescapable means to impose a tax/fee. They do now. Just because you MIGHT get sick (because if you're alive, there is that possibility) you now MUST purchase health insurance. Just because you breathe the air in your community and exhale the greenhouse gas CO2, you now MUST pay an environmental impact fee. That second one sounds ridiculous but the precedent this ruling sets allows for stupid outrageous shit like that now.
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#8 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:37 AM

This is, I think, the pull quote that he wanted to hand to Romney.

Quote

In this case, however, it is reasonable to construe what Congress has done as increasing taxes on those who have a certain amount of income, but choose to go without health insurance. Such legislation is within Congress’s power to tax.



And frankly, I think this is a much better give to the Romney campaign than a defeat. This keeps the nutbags fired up. Killing Obamacare would have pretty much left Romney with nothing.

And honestly, after Scalia's stump speech the other day, I'm only a little bit surprised that Roberts would have pulled such an obvious move.


Edit: I rest my case...

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 28 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:42 AM

ell I havent read this and I currently pay almost 1k for my family and myself for blue cross blue shield so I dont think people should bitch to much about paying for something many people already pay for.
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#10 sithius92  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:47 AM

I had read (on reddit) that the reason for making everyone buy health insurance is a trade-off to not being denied for a pre-existing condition. Granted, what I read was someone's version of the bill dumbed down for the masses. I will try to find the link later on.
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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:19 AM

Why? Why did they uphold it? It cannot "act as a tax" as they put it. It forces people to support things they don't want. I don't get it...
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#12 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:21 AM

They upheld it so Romney would have an issue. Seriously, that's the only reason.
(read Scalia's opinion this week in the Arizona immigration case if you think that's not possible)
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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:23 AM

Twitter has been blowing up with people claiming that they're moving to Canada after this was announced earlier today. I lol'd really hard for about an hour.
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#14 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:24 AM

Wait, what?

Moving to Canada to get away from the socialized health care?
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#15 Kilorn  Icon User is offline

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Re: Flame Sink: The Obamacare Ruling

Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:29 AM

Exactly.
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