[Codebug]

I'm a prospective C# programmer with a background in Java and C++. My question is: how are GUI's coded in C#? In the case of Java GUIs, the majority of people here highly suggest writing all GUIs by hand and avoiding GUI builders because the code they produce isn't very human readable. Should GUIs in C# be written completely by hand as well or are there "GUI builders" that produce legible code?

Thanks

[Skydiver]

For projects that I care about, and I don't have to work with other people in a team, I personally hand write my GUI's for WinForms and for WPF. If I have to work with a team, then I'll grudgingly use the VS2010 Designer, unless the other team members also believe in handwriting forms (which is not very likely). As for WPF, if it's complex UI, use the VS2010 Designer or Blend to get all the pixel counting and frame timing done right. I feel that people are lying though if they say they never touch the XAML directly.

[Codebug]

Thanks for the reply. A couple of questions: Do you know of any resources that discuss hand writing GUIs in C#? Also, what are "WinForms", "WPF", and "XAML"?

Thanks

[Skydiver]

WinForms is a thin wrapper around the Win32 controls, in general. There are actually some WinForms controls that have been written from scratch in C# like the DataGridView. These controls can be found in the System.Windows.Forms namespace. Getting Started with Windows Forms

WPF, otherwise known as Windows Presentation Framework is MS's next generation of GUI for the desktop. It shares many similarities with Silverlight which is MS's response to Flash. Although MS never says that WPF will deprecate WinForms, I think that it's mostly a politically correct answer to not piss off people who invested heavily in WinForms. I think that it's pretty telling the VS2010 was re-written in WPF rather than WinForms. WPF in Visual Studio

XAML is declarative way to creating UI. It's a lot like HTML where you stick in the controls and layout directly. I think that MSDN makes a far better job of explaining it here: http://msdn.microsof...y/ms752059.aspx

[AdamSpeight2008]

Don't be so quick to judge the GUI designer in Visual Studio.
You may be surprised how human readable the code produced is.

Simple WinForms Hello World button

using System;
using System.Collections.Generic;
using System.ComponentModel;
using System.Data;
using System.Drawing;
using System.Linq;
using System.Text;
using System.Windows.Forms;

namespace WindowsFormsApplication1 {
  public partial class Form1 : Form {
    public Form1() {
      InitializeComponent();
    }

    private void button1_Click(object sender, EventArgs e) {
      MessageBox.Show("Hello World!");
    }

 
  }
}

GUI Code.

Spoiler

namespace WindowsFormsApplication1 {
  partial class Form1 {
    /// <summary>
    /// Required designer variable.
    /// </summary>
    private System.ComponentModel.IContainer components = null;

    /// <summary>
    /// Clean up any resources being used.
    /// </summary

    /// <param name="disposing">true if managed resources should be disposed; otherwise, false.</param>
    protected override void Dispose(bool disposing) {
      if (disposing && (components != null))
      {
        components.Dispose();
      }
      base.Dispose(disposing);
    }

    #region Windows Form Designer generated code

    /// <summary>
    /// Required method for Designer support - do not modify
    /// the contents of this method with the code editor.
    /// </summary>
    private void InitializeComponent() {
      this.bHelloWorld = new System.Windows.Forms.Button();
      this.SuspendLayout();
      // 
      // bHelloWorld
      // 
      this.bHelloWorld.Location = new System.Drawing.Point(51, 25);
      this.bHelloWorld.Name = "bHelloWorld";
      this.bHelloWorld.Size = new System.Drawing.Size(75, 23);
      this.bHelloWorld.TabIndex = 0;
      this.bHelloWorld.Text = "Click Me";
      this.bHelloWorld.UseVisualStyleBackColor = true;
      this.bHelloWorld.Click += new System.EventHandler(this.button1_Click);
      // 
      // Form1
      // 
      this.AutoScaleDimensions = new System.Drawing.SizeF(6F, 13F);
      this.AutoScaleMode = System.Windows.Forms.AutoScaleMode.Font;
      this.ClientSize = new System.Drawing.Size(284, 262);
      this.Controls.Add(this.bHelloWorld);
      this.Name = "Form1";
      this.Text = "Hello World";
      this.ResumeLayout(false);

    }

    #endregion

    private System.Windows.Forms.Button bHelloWorld;
  }
}

Extremely close to what a human would write.

Extra in VS2012 the XAML GUI designer is actually the GUI Blend designer.

This post has been edited by AdamSpeight2008: 02 August 2012 - 08:24 PM

[tlhIn`toq]

Codebug, on 02 August 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Also, what are "WinForms", "WPF", and "XAML"?

Suggestion: Go to a bookstore. Browse the books on the subject. The public library probably has several too. We simply don't have the resources to mentor all 500,000 members from Day one - let alone another 2 million prospective people that are PRE day one.

The fact that you asked this, rather than attempting any type of search concerns me. You have heard of search engines like Google and Bing, right? Its not that I want to shuffle you off to some other site. But I think it speaks to someone's work ethic when they can't be bothered to try to do any research on their own. Most people, especially the experts here, respond better to this case:

Quote

Thanks for those tips. I researched "WinForms", "WPF", and "XAML" and read a bunch about each one. WInForms and WPF both seem to have strong positives and negatives. Based on your experience which do you think is better for a rookie to learn and why?

than they would to this case

Quote

Uh... What are those dude?

---

---

First learn the language by working 2-5 "Learn C# in 30 days" type books cover to cover. Do a couple hundred on-line tutorial projects where you build what you're told to build, the way you are told to build it WITH AN EXPLANATION OF WHY so you can learn.

Then later you can start architecting your own simple stuff. Build a calculator. Build a DVD library program. Etc. Stuff that doesn't involve the complexity of a game. Then move up to games.



There are three routes people seem to take when learning programming.

• Just start trying to create programs
  
• Start taking apart other programs and try to figure out the language by reverse engineering
  
• Follow a guided learning course (school or self-teaching books)

For the life of me I can't figure out why people try 1 & 2. I strongly suggest taking the guided learning approach. Those book authors go in a certain order for a reason: They know what they're doing and they know the best order to learn the materials.

Quote

Where do I start?

You start by learning a coding language FIRST.
Learn to plan before you type.
THEN you start designing software with a purpose.


If this sounds like you

Newbie/Rookie said:

I have a little programming experience but I need to write ...

read this section

Spoiler

You need to start there. I can't say "I have little experience in speaking Russian, but I have been assigned to write a mystery novel in Russian. Can you help me?"

We can help you by saying "First learn basic programming and the language of C#. Then take on assignments." Could someone here write this program for you? Sure. Could someone here map out all the processes you need to follow and do the Software Design part of this in the slim hope you could code it from there? Sure. But we don't volunteer to do the job that you're either getting paid for, or getting a grade for. You may want to read this.

For now, just work on the lessons. Do a self-teaching book from cover to cover. Then consider writing a program.

Don't try to create a useful working program to fit a need of yours (or a for-pay contract) as your introduction to coding project. When you are learning to code you don't know enough to code a program, let alone know how to engineer the architecture of a program. It would be like saying "I don't know how to read sheet music, or play an instrument. I think I'll write a 3 act opera as my first learning experience."

I don't say this to be mean. We've seen lots of new coders take this approach and we know it doesn't work. Trying to design your own programs before you understand the basics of the code language you've chosen just leads to problems, frustrations, and 'swiss-cheese' education (lots of holes).

Otherwise, you can just jump to the resources here:
Some of the tutorials below are for C# or Java not C, C++, VB.NET [...]. But the conceptual stuff of classes, object oriented design, events etc. are not language specific and should give you enough guidance in theory of program development for you to be able to look-up specific code example in your chosen coding language.

---

Resources, references and suggestions for new programmers. - Updated Mar 2012

---

Spoiler

Quote

I already have a background in programming from this other software/technology/lanugage so I don't think I need to do tutorials

Here's how I look at doing tutorials even if one has a coding background that makes one think they don't need to do tutorials:

• If one's background really is enough to not need the tutorials, then they won't take long - So what's the harm?
  
• If the tutorials do take a while, then it might be time to re-think how much of one's old experience really applies to the new technology.
  
• There's no down-side. Every tutorial/series teaches something in a new way. Maybe you pick up a neat trick or a different approach to something that you already knew.

The stages of asking for homework help on a forum



But honestly, just typing away and seeing what pops up in Intellisense is going to make your self-education take 20 years. You can learn by trying to reverse engineer the language through banging on the keyboard experimentation - or you can learn by doing the tutorials and following a good "How to learn C#" book. There are so many great "How do I build my first application" tutorials on the web... There are dozens of "Learn C# in 21 days", "My first C# program" type books at your local book seller or even public library.

Beginner:

Java

Spoiler

Best beginner books
Reading and writting a file in Java

C#

Spoiler

C# Reading list by Eric Lipert

C# Fundamentals: Development for absolute beginners (video series)
Build a Program Now! in Visual C# by Microsoft Press, ISBN 0-7356-2542-5 is a terrific book that has you build a Windows Forms application, a WPF app, a database application, your own web browser.

Martyr2's mega project ideas list is a great place to start on developmental projectst that you can learn from; rather than trying to make something complex like a game as a self-teaching tool {that never works for anyone}

Visual Studio Keyboard Shortcuts

D.I.C. C# Resource page Start here
Intro to C# online tutorial then here...
C# control structures then here.
MSDN Beginner Developer video series
MSDN video on OOP principals, making classes, constructors, accessors and method overloading
MSDN Top guideline violations, know what to avoid before you do it.
Design patterns as diagrams

I hate sending people to another site when we have such good tutorials here, but this series shouldn't be overlooked.
Programming OOP in C# - Part 1
Programming OOP in C# - Part 2
Programming OOP in C# - Part 3
Programming OOP in C# - Part 4
Programming OOP in C# - Part 5

Writing a text file is always one of the first things people want to do, in order to store data like high-scores, preferences and so on.
Writing a text file tutorial.
Reading a text file tutorial.
.Split()ing a string

Have you seen the 500+ MSDN Code Samples? They spent a lot of time creating samples and demos. It seems a shame to not use them.

Intermediate:
Microsoft Events (webcasts and podcasts)
The tutorials below walk through making an application including inheritance, custom events and custom controls, object serialization and more.
Quick and easy custom events
Bulding an application - Part 1
Building an application - Part 2
Separating data from GUI - PLUS - serializing the data to XML
WPF version (WPF-MVVM data binding)
Passing values between forms/classes
Decouple your multi-threaded work from the GUI so forms don't hang

Working with environmental variables
'Why do we use delegates?' thread
And everyone always wants to connect to a database, right out of the gate so Database tutorials right here on DIC

C# Cookbooks
Are a great place to get good code, broken down by need, written by coding professionals. You can use the code as-is, but take the time to actually study it. These professionals write in a certain style for a reason developed by years of experience and heartache.

Everyone:
Debugging tutorial
Debugging tips
Debugging in detail
Great debugging tips
It still doesn't work, article

I urge you to work through the C# learning series here on DIC, and to work a self-teaching book from cover to cover before you even think about designing your own applications.
Microsoft Visual Studio Tips, 251 ways to improve your productivity, Microsoft press, ISBN 0-7356-2640-5 Has many, many great, real-world tips that I use all the time.

These are just good every-day references to put in your bookmarks.
MSDN C# Developers Center with tutorials
Welcome to Visual Studio
Free editions of Visual Studio 2010
Student editions of Visual Studio


Windows Presentation Foundation:
Create Animations Programmatically

Some of my common tips (some may apply more than others to your specific style):

• You have to program as if everything breaks, nothing works, the cyberworld is not perfect, the attached hardware is flakey, the network is slow and unreliable, the harddrive is about to fail, every method will return an error and every user will do their best to break your software. Confirm everything. Range check every value. Make no assumptions or presumptions.
  
  
• Take the extra 3 seconds to rename your controls each time you drag them onto a form. The default names of button1, button2... button54 aren't very helpful. If you rename them right away to something like btnOk, btnCancel, btnSend etc. it helps tremendously when you make the methods for them because they are named after the button by the designer.btnSend_Click(object sender, eventargs e) is a lot easier to maintain than button1_click(object sender, eventargs e)
  
  
• You aren't paying for variable names by the byte. So instead of variables names of a, b, c go ahead and use meaningful names like index, timeOut, row, column and so on. You should avoid 'T' for the timer. Amongst other things 'T' is commonly used throughout C# for Type and this will lead to problems. There are naming guidelines you should follow so your code confirms to industry standards. It makes life much easier on everyone around you, including those of us here to help. If you start using the standards from the beginning you don't have to retrain yourself later.
  You might want to look at some of the naming guidelines. Its a lot easier to start with good habits than to break bad habits later and re-learn.
  
  
  • Guidelines for names
    
  • Naming guidelines
    
  • Design guidelines for classes
  
  
  
• Try to avoid having work actually take place in GUI control event handlers. It is better to have the GUI handler call other methods so those methods can be reused and make the code more readable. This is also how you can send parameters rather than use excessive global variables.
  
  Spoiler

  
  

  btnSave(object sender, eventargs e)
  {
      SavePreferences(preferencesPath);
  }
  
  SaveMenuItem(object sender, eventargs e)
  {
      SavePreferences(@"C:\prefs\test.txt");
  }
  
  SaveContextMenu(object sender, eventargs e)
  {
      SavePreferences();// No parameter method overload
  }
  
  FormMain_Closing(object sender, eventargs e)
  {
      if (IsDirty) SavePreferences();
  }
  

  
  
  
• Don't replace lines of code that don't work. Instead comment them out and put your new attemps below that. This will keep you from re-trying the same ideas over and over. Also, when you come back to us saying "I've tried this 100 different ways and still can't get it", we can actually see what you tried. So often a failed attempt is very very close and just needs a little nudge in the right direction. So if we can say "See what you did in attempt 3... blah blah" it helps a lot
  
  
  Spoiler

  // Try #1 - May 1, 0900hrs
  //    code
  //    code  
  //    code
  // Try #2 - May 2, 1700hrs   Okay, plan B.  What if I do it *this* way
  //    code
  //    code  
  //    code
  // Try #14 - May 3, 0500hrs after 5 cans of RedBull.  Maybe I should get some sleep. I can't think of anything else but this last idea
      code
      code  
      code
  
  

  
  If you are using Visual Studio you can select a block of lines and hit control+k control+c (Kode Comment) to comment it out. control+k control+u (Kode Uncomment) to uncomment a selected block.
  
  
  
• I strongly suggest installing VMware or some other virtualization technology on your development PC so you can create a couple virtual computers for testing. This would allow you to debug and test inside: WinXP32, XP64, Vista, Win7x32, Win7x64... etc. without having to actually have 5 physical PC's. Visual Studio will let you send the debug directly into one of these virtual machines so you can watch it operate, check its variables, see the crashes and so on just as if it were debugging on your real machine.
  
  
• This can't be stressed enough in today's world of cell phone messaging:
  Don't use txt/sms/leet/T9 speak like: u no, u r, dnt, wut i m do-n, coz, al gud, b4, ny1, sum1, please and so on like this guy:
  
  
  Spoiler

  dis not b d'hood dawg... You are sitting at a real keyboard with a real monitor, not a cell phone. You are not here texting your high school posse to come to your kegger after their shift at Taco Bell. You are here asking for help from senior coding professionals who graciously donate their valuable time to helping the next generation of coders with their chosen craft. Please try to show them, yourself and the industry some respect by writing at least at an eighth grade level. (IE: English not ebonics or SMS, real words, punctuation and so on). If you can't take your own problem/question seriously enough to write like an adult, then why would you expect anyone else to take it seriously?
  
  When you write a post you are presenting yourself. Your writing style is all you have to show others who you are and what you stand for. When I see posts filled with lack of capitalization, SMS text like 'Urself', lack of punctuation and so on; what I see is someone who just doesn't care to make even an eighth grade presentation of themselves. I also see that you feel we are not worth the effort. Posts that look like this show that you don't feel the person you are talking to is worth speaking to as an adult. If you show this level of contempt or apathy towards someone you are asking for help how can you expect to be taken seriously or expect to receive that expert's fullest attention and time to help you?

[Curtis Rutland]

Skydiver, on 02 August 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

For projects that I care about, and I don't have to work with other people in a team, I personally hand write my GUI's for WinForms and for WPF. If I have to work with a team, then I'll grudgingly use the VS2010 Designer, unless the other team members also believe in handwriting forms (which is not very likely). As for WPF, if it's complex UI, use the VS2010 Designer or Blend to get all the pixel counting and frame timing done right. I feel that people are lying though if they say they never touch the XAML directly.

You're by and far the minority in the C# developing world if you hand-code your forms. In Java you'd be right there with everyone.

Regardless, I'm hoping traditional windows forms just dies eventually. WPF is great, and now we have Metro to deal with as well.

[Skydiver]

The other thread is a perfect example of where a hand written GUI would have been much easier. If I didn't have to play footsies with the Designer, simply changing 1 or 2 lines of code to make the tab class derive from UserControl, and I'm done. Now, he'll have to go recreate the contents of his Form in a UserControl.

[All my past experiments of simply doing a cut and paste of code from a Form to a UserControl (or vice versa), seem to initially work, but a few days or a week later VS gets into a bad state and seems to complain about being unable to load the new class that I had pasted code into, and I eventually have to recreate the destination control or form again from scratch.]

This post has been edited by Skydiver: 03 August 2012 - 05:14 PM

[Codebug]

tlhIn`toq, on 03 August 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Suggestion: Go to a bookstore. Browse the books on the subject. The public library probably has several too. We simply don't have the resources to mentor all 500,000 members from Day one - let alone another 2 million prospective people that are PRE day one.

The fact that you asked this, rather than attempting any type of search concerns me. You have heard of search engines like Google and Bing, right? Its not that I want to shuffle you off to some other site. But I think it speaks to someone's work ethic when they can't be bothered to try to do any research on their own.

Mr. tlhIn`toq, I value the wisdom and advice of the experts on this forum far more than other sources that have been authored by someone who may or may not have a clue as to what they're talking about. I trust the experts here and I have never been led astray by them. That is the reason why I don't search other places first.

You don't know me and my work ethic is nothing like what you have insinuated. I was under the impression that this site was for programmers of all skill levels and backgrounds.

If my novice questions and forum etiquette have angered or frustrated you in any way, I am truly sorry and I apologize. I can assure you that I will not make this mistake again.

Good Day

This post has been edited by Codebug: 04 August 2012 - 10:29 PM

[tlhIn`toq]

Codebug, on 04 August 2012 - 11:29 PM, said:

tlhIn`toq, on 03 August 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Suggestion: Go to a bookstore. Browse the books on the subject. The public library probably has several too. We simply don't have the resources to mentor all 500,000 members from Day one - let alone another 2 million prospective people that are PRE day one.

The fact that you asked this, rather than attempting any type of search concerns me. You have heard of search engines like Google and Bing, right? Its not that I want to shuffle you off to some other site. But I think it speaks to someone's work ethic when they can't be bothered to try to do any research on their own.

Mr. tlhIn`toq, I value the wisdom and advice of the experts on this forum far more than other sources that have been authored by someone who may or may not have a clue as to what they're talking about. I trust the experts here and I have never been led astray by them. That is the reason why I don't search other places first.

You don't know me and my work ethic is nothing like what you have insinuated. I was under the impression that this site was for programmers of all skill levels and backgrounds.

If my novice questions and forum etiquette have angered or frustrated you in any way, I am truly sorry and I apologize. I can assure you that I will not make this mistake again.

Good Day

Kid, chill out and grow up a bit. Just because someone isn't your cheer squad doesn't mean they are insulting you. Just because something they write isn't saying "You're perfect, you can achieve anything" doesn't mean the help is worthless. Sometimes the best advice can be the advice that's hardest to hear. Your friends, family and clergy can bolster your self esteem. We will tell you the truth. Don't you think it is worth knowing that at least one person interpreted your comments/actions in a certain way? Doesn't that make you wonder if someone else (like a prospective employer) might see it the same way? Nobody is saying you have to agree with it. But I do suggest you consider the fact that not everyone will always agree with you. You are right: I don't know you or your work ethic. I only know what you present here, a totally clean slate where everyone is equal with no preconceived notions. Just like a job interview you are competing against others based on nothing but your written words. I tried to give you a different perspective on your post and give you some insight into how it could be taken and some advice on how to have it taken better. And you're mad about that?

Quote

Most people, especially the experts here, respond better to this case:

Quote

Thanks for those tips. I researched "WinForms", "WPF", and "XAML" and read a bunch about each one. WInForms and WPF both seem to have strong positives and negatives. Based on your experience which do you think is better for a rookie to learn and why?

than they would to this case

Quote

Uh... What are those dude?

This site is for programmers of all levels. Nobody said otherwise. But you have to recognize there are over 500,000 members and a core group of about 50 experts. That's a student:teacher ratio of 10,000:1. Nothing incriminating about that just simple math. It is simply not possible for us to hand-hold every new member through every introductory question that is well covered in MANY books and many on-line tutorials. There is a certain amount of effort the student has to take on as their own responsibility to research.

The experts here are volunteers. The reality of human beings is that you need to compete for their attention. I for one help those that make an effort. Someone that does a bit of research on their own and comes back with smart questions is someone I want to help. I'll spend countless hours with one rookie that shows that kind of promise. The kid that just says "tell me more", "what does that do", etc. without bothering to do any experimenting on their own, without trying to do any research of their own is not going to make it in this industry. I don't see a reason to spend my limited free time on a lost cause. I won't write the same day-one advice over and over in 100 threads. I will write a tutorials (or several) so it is explained well.

I won't spend time more time on someone else than they are willing to invest in themselves. And that is how I interpret someone that can't bother to do their own basic research and reading and forming of their own thoughts: They won't invest the time in themselves.

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 05 August 2012 - 05:10 AM