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#1 ijustkilledu007  Icon User is offline

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The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:27 AM

Hello for the last couple years I have been thinking up this game that I think would be the perfect game or at least the perfect game for me. I don't have that much experience in coding anything but that's one reason that I'm on this website is to help me learn. Before someone says anything I know that I'm probably not going to be doing this anytime soon. I will have to work my way up to this level of programing. Also if anyone wishes to take on this project please let me know and at the least I could help test it and report bugs. I'm not trying to beg. If no one does do anything like this then I will defiantly try to.
So here are my ideas:
It would be a racing/shooter game kinda of like APB Reloaded
ability to switch POV 3rd person and 1st person
the customization of Need for Speed underground 2 examples of what I mean
*car neons, hoods, roof scopes, performance, color of the car, tuning the car,
gameplay like GTA
realistic guns like call of duty (this isn't really important to me any guns are good guns:)
pedestrians
car damage
Also a police system simaler to NFS Most Wanted
If you have anymore ideas or need more details let me know.

I also have a few questions
How long would it take to do something like this?
How long will it take me to learn enough about programing to start this project?
And would anyone be willing to help me with this?

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#2 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:15 AM

That doesn't sound like *my* perfect game... lol


Quote

How long would it take to do something like this?

Depends on skill, team size, and defining what all your "like" requirements are... "realistic guns like call of duty"... "gameplay like GTA"... "the customization of Need for Speed underground 2"... "game kinda of like APB Reloaded"...

I am unclear on how quickly you learn, get concepts, or even what resources you'll have coming in. Do you plan on doing all the graphics yourself? Well that will take time. Sound effects? More time... Coding two different point of views? More time.

It's one thing to wave your hand and throw out the likes but what that actually means when the grindstone meets the grain is another. So... six months to four years.

Quote

How long will it take me to learn enough about programing to start this project?

Again - that's depends on what the game consists of. Perhaps taking time to write out all the aspects you want - in detail - and then you might have a handle on what you should learn.

Quote

And would anyone be willing to help me with this?

Not I..
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#3 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:28 AM

What you're describing sounds like a pretty big project. I'm not sure anyone can say how long it would take to put together without a clear blueprint of how it's going to be put together, but I think you would be looking at maybe a year or more, if you kept the scope pretty limited. That also assumes that you've made a few games like that already and are an expert at putting together such games.

If you're learning from scratch, you have literally dozens, if not hundreds, of rather difficult to learn skills that you need to get really good at.

If you're putting this together by yourself, there are a lot of things that aren't even related to programming that you will have to be good at. For example, you need to be an acomplished digital sculptor using a program like Maya or Blender in order to make the models for the cars and everything else. This skill alone will likely take you a couple of years to learn. Then you have all the time it takes to actually create these models. Someone with many years of experience might be able to crank out a model of a car in 8 hours. Without the experience... well, you need the experience.

And there are other things that aren't related to programming, such as the sound effects. Someone has to record everything you hear in the game. And you need to be a musician to write any music in the game.

And a game about guns and cars is going to require some physics. You probably need to take a physics class and you definately need to know trigonometry well enough to teach the class. Calculus will be a real plus, if not a necessity. Linear Algebra is also going to come in handy. (Linear Algebra is a class that most people don't even know exists. It typically comes after a couple of years of college calculus on your way to a math or engineering degree.)

Are you starting to see the next 10 years of your life flash before your eyes? :-)

The good news is that you can learn to program games. You have to love the "journey" because you won't be "arriving" for a very long time. But if you enjoy the journey you can start having fun with it pretty quick.

There "are" some shortcuts that you can take. You "may" be able to download models rather than making your own, but I've found that you're probably not going to really find the models that you want for free 9 times out of 10. I've found a few websites with sound effects for free, but again you'll probably need to edit some of those sound files to get what you need and even then you may still not find what you want beyond some basic sounds. So, you have to go buy a $400 digital recorder and become a foley artist and you still run into the problem of how exactly are you going to record a Ferrari engine when you don't have a Ferrari. (At some point you just have to accept that you are going to have some severe limitations working as an independent game programmer or even as a game programmer with a small to medium sized team. EA may be able to talk Ferrari into letting them borrow a car for a day to do some recording but 10 guys no one has ever heard of are probably not going to have as much clout.) But even if you just decide to record your own car as temporary filler sound you still have to have the equipment and skill to do it. Foley is an art.

But anyway, if you want to start the journey, probably the first thing to do is learn a programming language. Most any of them will do to get you started.

I would recommend downloading the free version of Microsoft Visual C# from their website and then going and reading a couple of books on C#. After that, you should be ready to start making some simple games and you should be ready to start learning XNA. You should probably be thinking of making very simple 2D games until you find that "too easy". For example, you should probably start by making "Pong". The video game industry didn't become what it is overnight. Even the industry itself started by making simple games that just became more and more complex after decades of improvements.

Another path you could try is to download Unity. I think you would be better off going down the C#/XNA path because you would be getting more into the "core" of game programming and starting out in 2D. But there's a lot to be learned from working with a game engine like Unity too.

This post has been edited by BBeck: 20 August 2012 - 10:58 AM

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#4 ijustkilledu007  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:25 PM

Theres a Ferrari Dealer a block away from me :winkiss:
I was thinking about getting Unity or something like that but I'm just starting out and I don't really know the best way I should start.
I don't plan on doing this myself. I know people at my school that are wanting to code their own games and i could maybe get a few of them to help. But I would still need some professionals to help out.
This year I'm taking Trig, Physics, and Digital Design. I'm really good at math.
I have been messing around with GTA4's car models(just textures though) and the physics of the guns and cars. Also I have played around with enbs for gta4, gtasa, nfsu2, nfsmw, call of duty, and other games but it wasn't exactly how i wanted it so I have been making graphics mods with out the enb(just gta though cause I don't know where the files to modify for other games) and I have found out that modifying the files your self can make the game run nice and smooth without lag unlike when you use a enb.
I was only planning on making one model you know so that I could focus on the one to test out the game and everything. Maybe just going to the GTA and NFS websites were people post their mods and converting/modifying the models to what ever I needed them with the permission of the author of course.
If you recommend a engine to play around with and maybe some step by step tutorials so I can get the hang of it that would be great.
And for how fast I learn most of the time I don't really understand what the teacher is doing but when I look in the book for myself and do it I normally get it right away. Also when I mod gta I always download some thing similar to what I what to do and see what files they have edited to get the results they got and I mess around with the files myself and if I every have a question I always look it up on youtube for a tutorial and I pretty much under stand it after that. So I would say as long as there are some videos tutorials and some written step by steps tuts then I think I can do it.

sorry for the run on sentences but grammar isn't my strongest subject math/science is that's why I what to have a career in programming/game design so I am willing to try/learn new things that could help my achieve my goal/s.

This post has been edited by GunnerInc: 20 August 2012 - 04:12 PM
Reason for edit:: Removed quote

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#5 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:27 PM

Just a heads up - there's no need to quote a giant comment right above yours.
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#6 ijustkilledu007  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:36 PM

yes I know its just that I didn't get a lot of sleep because I started school today and only got a few hours sleep.
Also I maybe might take Digital Design 2 next year(my senior year of high school) and pass the test you need to take to be a certified um.. graphics designer??? I don't remember I'm to tried. I could take the test this year but my teacher said that it got harder and she only got like an 80% on it when she took it over the summer. So as you can see I'm trying to do what i can on my own to start doing stuff like making a game but I still need some help to get me there.
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#7 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:43 PM

Get you where? We cannot just download some sort of know-how to you.. nor is anyone there at your side as a tutor. The "I want to make the next biggest most amazing game ever, but do not know where to start" is a common thread here. The simple is - pick a language, learn core programming concepts, learn the framework, branch out to game development, then make your game. The long - read through all of those threads and aggregate an idea.
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#8 ijustkilledu007  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:05 PM

I know I'm just saying that I'm trying to do everything I can to get me to the level of knowledge I need to be at to make my own game. But I still going to need people to help me out with my code and questions'n stuff to get me to where I need to be to make an awesome game. I will also need a team but I'm not even asking or trying to discus that. I just need some peoples opinions on where I need to start.
And I have already checked out the other topics and I am trying to learn some stuff.
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#9 SixOfEleven  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:47 PM

View Postijustkilledu007, on 20 August 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

How long would it take to do something like this?


It takes game studios years to make games like these.


View Postijustkilledu007, on 20 August 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

How long will it take me to learn enough about programing to start this project?


Not knowing you and your aptitude for several things, including math, logic, critical thinking, can't say. I'd give it a solid year, at least, before I'd consider trying this project starting from no, or next to no, knowledge of programming.

View Postijustkilledu007, on 20 August 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

And would anyone be willing to help me with this?


You're not going to find many takers here with the skills you would need, sorry if that seems harsh. Point is this project is going to take a lot of time and most of the professional coders here wouldn't even consider it, even if they found the idea interesting, unless you're parents are millionaires and you can pay them well.
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#10 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:56 PM

Sounds like you are off to a pretty good start with the classes you are taking and what not.

Modi's right that you need to learn a programming language, learn it, learn core programming concepts, and then slowly start branching out into game development.

Modifying existing games is a good start. Redoing textures, and what not, develops skills that you will need much later down the road, when you start working on 3D games.

You really have to get used to working on your own. Even if you manage to recruit some friends, you should be prepared to do 95% of the "work", or 100% if they decide to quit. People are never going to be as excited or motivated about your project as you are. But, if you do most of the hard work, they will be more willing to join you.

It's a lot easier to recruit people to do some textures and art work for you if you have a fully functional demo game and just need some help producing more content. That's even more true if you are talking about strangers rather than your friends.

So, I'm recommending you learn some C#. You could start with something a little easier, such as Visual Basic, but it sounds like you're pretty good at learning logical stuff like math. C# isn't that much more difficult than Visual Basic. And C# is a free download. You gotta love that price. Plus, it puts you on a good learning path. There are a whole lot of books out there on C#. And it puts you on the path to learning XNA (the game programming library for C#). You can do games in C# without XNA, but XNA lets you do a lot more game programming wise and you pretty much need XNA by the time you start doing 3D in C#.

I'm not sure exactly what C# book to recommend, but this one looks like "roughly" what you need and it got good reviews:

http://www.amazon.co...6&keywords=c%23


(Whoops! I got to looking at the reviews on that book and it appears to be an "Avanced level C# book". Probably not at all good for a beginner. See, I told you I didn't know exactly which book to recommend. :-) Maybe try this one:

http://www.amazon.co...7&keywords=c%23

I think I may get that first one for myself to read. :-) Whatever you get, look for something at a beginner level that explains computer programming. That second book there is probably closer to what you need, but it gets into stuff that you probably don't need to know about, like WPF and Databases. It won't hurt you to learn that stuff, but it goes back to what I was saying that you may need more than one C# book to really learn it. According to the index, the book doesn't even get to the real core of what you need to know until Section 2, but I suppose maybe they're easing you into it and giving you kind of the "big picture".

Actually, maybe this is a better one for you. It's hard to tell just looking at the description and indexes.

http://www.amazon.co...keywords=c%23#_

I'd probably go with that 3rd one. You want one that's easy to understand that covers subjects like "for loops", "if then", "strings", "classes", "methods", "data types such as double", etc. It's not a beginner book if it doesn't cover that stuff and you'll be completly lost.
)


But reading a book like this is really where you need to start. To do game programming seriously, you seriously need to learn a programming language. And if you are going to be a programmer this book will just be one of hundreds, if not thousands, that you read to learn how to be a programmer. Making your way through a book like that will tell you a lot about yourself as to whether you have what it takes to be a programmer (mostly interest). A lot of people take a class on programming and suddenly discover they hate programming. (Don't be too suprised if you have to read two or three beginner C# books before you really "get it". There has been a lot of stuff like that where I had to buy four or five books before their combined information gave me enough to really understand it.)

Anyway, once you make it through a book like that you can start kind of thinking about learning to program games. A book like this might be appropriate at that point:


http://www.amazon.co...words=C%23+game

This book is written using GDI in C#. I kind of like it for that reason, because that means you're still pretty much sticking to C#. (GDI is part of Windows itself, where XNA is a seperate download that you have to install after you install C#. In other words, XNA is not a built in part of Windows. But XNA is also free to download.)

After that, moving into XNA would be the next logical step and you could find a beginners book on XNA. You would still be working in C# but actually getting into some full fledged game programming at that point.

This process of buying books and learning from them is an ongoing process for programmers. I haven't counted all the computer books that I have, but I feel pretty confident in saying that I have enough computer books to fill two full size (6 foot tall) book cases. I probably have 8 books on XNA alone, at least.

As far as tutorials, you might be able to find some C# tutorials out there. I wouldn't really know where to look for that other than to just Google it. I would plan on learning from books, if it were me, but it won't hurt to go through some tutorials.

Once you start understanding a programming language like C# and programming some of your own simple games, it will be easier to see what the next logical step is in learning.

And as far as getting help, if you start writing your own code in C# (or some other language) and start running into problems, I think you will find people here willing to help you. But they are going to want to see that you've tried your best to solve the problem on your own. And they're going to want to see the code that you put together, not only to show that you've been working at it, but also to be able to figure out what the problem is.

And for "learning" game programming, you don't necessarily need a team. You can make a simple game, like Pong on your own, and you could probably be at the necessary skill level with your programming to make it in under a year if you work at learning to program. There's a lot of game programming that you can do by yourself; you just have to accept that a single person can't create something as big as GTAV by themselves. You kind of have to just get started and then you'll start realizing what's possible for one person and what isn't. And then if you can talk a couple of your friends into getting involved, it's just that much better. Just be prepared to work 10 times harder at it than any of them do and you shouldn't be disappointed.

I know, being in high school, you may not have the money for expensive computer books. But I'm betting your parents will be more than willing to buy them for you when they realize you're trying to learn a job skill. You can get a pretty good paying job as a C# programmer (that has nothing to do with programming games). Tell them that and I'm betting they'll be more than willing to whip out the credit card and buy you a couple of C# books. Asking them to buy you a book that teaches you a skill that you can use at just about any corporation is probably going to go over better than "buy me a book so that I can learn to program games". And you'll be into XNA before you can no longer honestly say to them "This book will teach me a skill that could get me a job at just about any big company."

If you Google something like "C# programming tutorial", you should find some tutorials like these:


http://www.freewebs....a/tutorials.htm
http://broadcast.ore...mode-games.html

This post has been edited by BBeck: 20 August 2012 - 03:28 PM

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#11 ijustkilledu007  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:43 PM

thanks I will check out the books and websites
I just remembered that my dad might have some books too but they're from the 90's
I was thinking that it would take about a year or two atleast to be able to start making this it just depends on the pace I am learning I don't want to rush this because then I'll have problems and then I really wont know want to do.

I was also think of maybe porting(is that the right word for it?) the game to ps3 when I have it finished. So I could either have it in a .iso or something like that for people to download and burn it to a disc or I could sell it for a reasonable price $15-20 maybe. I would like to submit it to Steam too. Anyway that's not going to happen for awhile so...
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#12 ijustkilledu007  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:17 PM

http://www.freewebs....a/tutorials.htm

looks like some really good tutorials I will start doing this. i haven't looked at the other website yet I will try to before I go to bed or tomorrow.
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#13 calvinthedestroyer  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:20 PM

Perfect? perfect...

Well, lets see

  • You would have to look at the past to see what was good and what is shatted out as a game.
  • You gotta start small, get some concepts, story boards, every detail you can think of.
  • Now you need to decide on your platform and time line. When is it going to be done? what system?
  • How are you going to get it done? Do it yourself? Hire a staff?
  • You have to think about how you are going to fund it.
  • Making a game is more like running a business.

As far as perfect?

I would research what these guys have to say about video games, I'm sure they will give you some pointers :)

The Irate Gammer

The Angry Video Game Nerd

Pat The Nes Punk

Good Luck!

One tip: make something(anything) and put it up for sale. then you can earn some revenue for your dream game.
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#14 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: The perfect game?

Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:39 PM

I just looked over that tutorial. It's pretty good and it get focused on the main stuff you need to be learning pretty much. A book would probably be better, because it's likely to explain things a little more deeply. But the tutorials you can start digging into right now, where you might have to wait several days or so before you can get a book.

Any book from the 90s is pretty "suspect". I actually know of one for Assembly language that I would highly recommend even today. But any computer book from the 90s is going to be seriously out of date. Even a book that's more than about 5 years old is usually useless.

Anyway, once you get through the C# tutorials on that site he goes into XNA. That's fine but his site's a bit out of date. His XNA tutorials are for XNA 2.0 and the current version is 4.0. And 4.0 is overdue for an update. So, I would recommend switching to Riemer's tutorials at that point. You can actually jump into XNA before you become an expert in C#, but I would recommend at least learning all the stuff in the C# tutorials on that site before doing much with XNA, because otherwise you're likely to be pretty confused.

Probably right now you should go over to the XNA sub-forum and look at the Resources thread. There's download links for C# 2008 and C# 2010 as well as XNA 3.0 and XNA 4.0. Plus there's a link to Riemer's site and RB Whitiker's site (two of my favorites).

I probably would not go through XNA 2.0 tutorials. I'm not sure how different XNA 2.0 is compared to 3.0. But XNA 3.0 to XNA 4.0 was such a big change that code written for one will not work on the other without really knowing what you're doing in modifying the code. And C# 2008 goes with XNA 3.0 while C#2010 goes with XNA 4.0. You may want to have all 4 on your computer so that you can take advantage of 3.0 and 4.0 tutorials.

And feel free to post any questions about stuff that you're not understanding in the XNA sub-forum. I think even C# questions would probably be fine for that forum whether it's XNA related or not.
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