What about adding a forum for OS development

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35 Replies - 5151 Views - Last Post: 29 September 2012 - 12:01 PM

#16 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:23 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 13 September 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Two observations:
1. When Torvalds created linux, he didn't have the skill or the knowledge to create linux.
2. When Torvalds created linux, the first thing he did was to pass it around and get input from other programmers. When he did this, it wasn't even a toy kernel, it was a sketch.


A1: Yep. And mice as input devices were new and innovative. And when I was 13 I built my first computer from a Heathkit. You can't use analogies from a decade or more ago in today's world. Technology and software development is a moving target on a high speed bullet train.

A2: Yep. He passed it out to other programmers. Not a bunch of students that are asking for help to get the Hangman homework assignment right. I'm sorry for not being subtle about it but the simple fact is that for 500,000 members on here there are may be 200 that know their arse from a hole in the ground.

As someone said, the "Share your project" forum is about right for the 1-3/year realistic possibilities of a working new OS collaboration. The rest of the questions on this topic are really all the same: "Can I make an operating system using C# and will you show me how step-by-step."

quoting and qualifying:

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Jon got it right: if our forums were being flooded with qualified non-fantasy OS questions, we'd make an OS forum. They aren't, so we won't.

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 13 September 2012 - 08:25 AM

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#17 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:41 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 13 September 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 13 September 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Two observations:
1. When Torvalds created linux, he didn't have the skill or the knowledge to create linux.
2. When Torvalds created linux, the first thing he did was to pass it around and get input from other programmers. When he did this, it wasn't even a toy kernel, it was a sketch.


A1: Yep. And mice as input devices were new and innovative.


Really?

wikipedia said:

Engelbart applied for a patent in 1967 and received it in 1970, for the wooden shell with two metal wheels (computer mouse - U.S. Patent 3,541,541), which he had developed with Bill English, his lead engineer, a few years earlier. In the patent application it is described as an "X-Y position indicator for a display system". Engelbart later revealed that it was nicknamed the "mouse" because the tail came out the end.


The famous "dealing lightning with both hands" demo took place in 1968.

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You can't use analogies from a decade or more ago in today's world. Technology and software development is a moving target on a high speed bullet train.



I think it's still true that big new things are mostly made by people who don't know enough to know how hard it's going to be. This is one of the basic paradoxes of software engineering.


Quote

A2: Yep. He passed it out to other programmers. Not a bunch of students that are asking for help to get the Hangman homework assignment right. I'm sorry for not being subtle about it but the simple fact is that for 500,000 members on here there are may be 200 that know their arse from a hole in the ground.


Actually, I think minix was pretty much a student OS. So when he posted to comp.os.minix, he was talking to a bunch of students and maybe some more professional enthusiasts. Probably most of them were past the hangman stage, I'll grant you that, but there's no need to sneer at people for trying to learn something.

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 13 September 2012 - 08:43 AM

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#18 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:06 AM

Not going to argue the difference between the patenting of a thing, and the real-world acceptance and use of a thing. The wheel barrow was accepted long before it was patented. The mouse was patented long before it was actually accepted in every-day computer use.

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 13 September 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Actually, I think minix was pretty much a student OS. So when he posted to comp.os.minix, he was talking to a bunch of students and maybe some more professional enthusiasts. Probably most of them were past the hangman stage, I'll grant you that, but there's no need to sneer at people for trying to learn something.



Yes. And no. They were students then and they are students now. But the students of todays CIS classes are not equivalent to the computer students of that era. To be a computer student then one really needed to be a 'wire-head' that could think equally well in decimal, hex and binary. Todays students have no grasp even up to their graduation. They have no understanding of registers or bit shifting.

I'm not sneering at anyone that actually wants to learn something. And certainly not any someone that wants to create something. I think I've been pretty clear that those people aren't here. The one's here asking about this just want to be told how to combine someone else's framework of commands and namespaces into something they can call their own OS.

At this point I think I've stood on my soap box long enough. I think this is a good lively topic and wish those that will continue with it a lot of fun in doing so. But it's head a dead end for me.
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#19 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:25 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 13 September 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Not going to argue the difference between the patenting of a thing, and the real-world acceptance and use of a thing. The wheel barrow was accepted long before it was patented. The mouse was patented long before it was actually accepted in every-day computer use.


I do realize that this is a tangent to a tangent to a tangent, but what the hell. Windows was announced in 1985, and the Macintosh in 1984. In the academic world, people had been using mice on working machines for years before that. I remember when I was a kid, playing with the workstations at Stanford and PARC - these were not new to anyone in 1985. The mouse was not new by anyone's standards in 1991, unless they just hadn't been paying attention. It had been in everyday use for over a decade.

Quote

Yes. And no. They were students then and they are students now. But the students of todays CIS classes are not equivalent to the computer students of that era. To be a computer student then one really needed to be a 'wire-head' that could think equally well in decimal, hex and binary. Todays students have no grasp even up to their graduation. They have no understanding of registers or bit shifting.


One of these days we'll have to sit down and drink a beer and shake our canes at the youngster with their loud hair and long music.

Quote

At this point I think I've stood on my soap box long enough. I think this is a good lively topic and wish those that will continue with it a lot of fun in doing so. But it's head a dead end for me.


Yeah, I think it's about run its course. Nice arguing with you, haven't seen you around lately.
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#20 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:40 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 13 September 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Nice arguing with you, haven't seen you around lately.


Rather than quit DIC, I just reduced my interaction with posts that I new would piss me off.
Then as if by providence Skydiver joined our merry band and started giving really good answers to lots of rookies: Filling in that niche that I walked away from before seriously going off on someone.

Combine that with a recent business trip to Brazil, and getting ready for one to New Zealand and I've been either off the internet completely or just pretty busy. I haven't left, just trying to do more of less. Which in this case is give more time to those that show promise and leave the hopeless and apathetic to fail the courses they don't really want to be in anyway.
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#21 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:44 AM

Sounds like you're having more fun this way - glad to hear it.
Getting some fishing in as well, I hope.
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#22 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:16 AM

Just so you know, this is what I pictured when reading this:

Posted Image
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#23 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:31 AM

These things are important. Really.
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#24 aloneprogrammer  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:53 PM

Ok, Friends when my OS is complete I will release it with source code so other can understand how to make an OS I'm working on this project 3 years ago when I was 10 years old now I'm 12 but still it is not complete.......I even crashed my comp many times but now I run on VM then do the practical and regarding OS forum I don't mean sking questin Like how to make OS in x language but the questions that mainly in most os developers arises like how to get a memory map,how to get architecture type.....Which type of memory is claimable or which mem we shouldn't probe,etc....
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#25 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 14 September 2012 - 09:58 PM

Why not put it up somewhere now, so people can see what you're doing and maybe help you get it rolling?
Who knows, you might create enough interest that we have to start an OS forum!
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#26 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 16 September 2012 - 09:18 PM

Mind you some of us eccentrics in the College ages are quite capable of making an OS. Consequentially, we also realize how confounded the entire idea is and have no desire to reinvent something that massive.

The irony is that any student that has that knowledge knows exactly why they wouldn't ever want to completely make an OS, effectively mitigating the pipe dreams of most freshman.

That being said, back to making an entire OS in LISP for me. All the hipstagrammers are going functional these days, gotta stay ahead of the curve.
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#27 BetaWar  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 17 September 2012 - 02:51 PM

View PostCurtis Rutland, on 13 September 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Gotta say I'm with Jon on this one.

Actually, lots of CS programs have OS design classes as a requirement or an elective. Over the course of a semester, the class will design and implement a simple, basic OS (something that can handle I/O and execute some code, that runs at the level an OS normally does). So lots of average programmers will get some experience doing this. Their end result will not be practical, nor will they write the next Linux by themselves, but they will be capable of doing basic OS work.

Jon got it right: if our forums were being flooded with OS questions, we'd make an OS forum. They aren't, so we won't.


Gotta say, I wish my University offered such a course. Sadly, OS for me was mostly theory with a simple multi-threading application being the most complicated thing we actually programmed the entire semester. It was almost a waste of time...

View Postaloneprogrammer, on 15 September 2012 - 05:53 AM, said:

Ok, Friends when my OS is complete I will release it with source code so other can understand how to make an OS I'm working on this project 3 years ago when I was 10 years old now I'm 12 but still it is not complete.......I even crashed my comp many times but now I run on VM then do the practical and regarding OS forum I don't mean sking questin Like how to make OS in x language but the questions that mainly in most os developers arises like how to get a memory map,how to get architecture type.....Which type of memory is claimable or which mem we shouldn't probe,etc....


Ah, this brings back memories. I started an OS about 5 years ago at this point. It still isn't complete, in fact it doesn't boot. I ran it in a VM all along and I even got it to the point of implementing virtual memory before realizing that them VM I was using was making a lot of assumptions for me that standard machines wouldn't make. I changed VMs and quickly got kernel panics on each and every boot (even though all the settings were theoretically the same). Once I actually get a chance to look at GRUB source and re-implement my bootloader I believe that things will start moving again.

I also made a change to why my OS will be eventually (assuming I get it going again). Instead of making a desktop OS it will be an embedded OS. That should take away a lot of requirements initially, and may even kill the need for a bootloader in the first place (assuming I use something like NVSRAM). It should be interesting.

If you search for "modos" you should be able to find a number of topics I started talking about my development, problems, and other things, as well as a number of useful links.

-----

Now, back to the topic at hand - We really don't need an OS forum. There are entire forums out there dedicated of OS development (though many of them don't really give you the time of day if you ask a question). We don't have enough people wanting to make an OS to even have it worth the space 1 or 2 additional rows in the database would take. I would say you should just use the share your project forum along with the correct help forums when needed.
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#28 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:57 AM

*
POPULAR

View Postaloneprogrammer, on 14 September 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

... I'm working on this project 3 years ago when I was 10 years old now I'm 12 ...


Might wanna brush up on some math before you keep pushing on that OS...
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#29 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 18 September 2012 - 10:55 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 13 September 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 13 September 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

The simple fact is: Anyone that actually has enough skill, and enough knowledge about how computer work on a low enough level to create an operating system isn't going to come here to ask for advice.


This is bugging me a little. I agree that the forum should not happen, but I disagree about the reasons.

Two observations:
1. When Torvalds created linux, he didn't have the skill or the knowledge to create linux.
2. When Torvalds created linux, the first thing he did was to pass it around and get input from other programmers. When he did this, it wasn't even a toy kernel, it was a sketch.

Linux is a kernel & not an OS. The Linux kernel was paired with other parts of GNU to create distributions of Linux. Torvalds did have the underlying knowledge & ability to create the kernel that he wanted. imo, completely different situation.
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#30 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: What about adding a forum for OS development

Posted 18 September 2012 - 11:16 AM

View Postno2pencil, on 18 September 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Linux is a kernel & not an OS. The Linux kernel was paired with other parts of GNU to create distributions of Linux. Torvalds did have the underlying knowledge & ability to create the kernel that he wanted. imo, completely different situation.


Distinction noted, but if you read Torvalds' account, it's clear that he did not have the knowledge or ability to create that kernel when he started. He acquired them along the way, in no small part from the code provided by other people who also did not have the knowledge and ability to create that kernel, and who also learned how it was done by doing it.
He wasn't even writing a kernel when he started - if I remember right, it was a terminal emulator that metastasized.
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