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#1 BetaWar  Icon User is offline

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Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:40 PM

... and why it is utterly stupid. A rant, and discussion.

I recently decided that I was going to set up a Arch VM for work and increase my productivity by using newer tools (or at least a distro I am used to, instead of Solaris 10.something) for development. The only problem is that the newest image has decided to completely remove the /arch/setup program in favor of making us manually do everything. This doesn't work for me; mainly because Arch is touted as being an intermediate distro, and appears to be moving towards advanced.

I went through the steps provided on their wiki, along with the sub-articles as needed (mostly the ones detailing how to partition and format the harddrive and how to install the grub bootloader). I got the bootloader working properly, at least as far as I can tell (I get the standard grub boot menu when I rebooted). The only problem is that neither option provided would boot, both of them stating instead some error message (don't remember off the top of my head). Now, I don't classify myself as an expert in Linux (obviously, otherwise I wouldn't have this issue), but I also don't consider myself a noobie. I do however get frustrated when people make things unnecessarily difficult, or broken for their consumers. Arch managed to take an install process from 30 minutes max to over 2 hours without getting a working OS at the end. That seems outrageous to me!

Now, am I the only one who personally likes having a program do most/ all the work for you when installing an OS? I can't be, otherwise Unix would have taken over the world. People like ease of use, so why is it that companies out there seem to be removing useful tools from their products? This is just one example, but then the iPhone got rid of Google Maps, and Youtube (I understand their battle against Google, but why replace things with inferior products?). Are companies/ groups of people just going off the deep end? Are they expecting too much out of their customers?

Thoughts?

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Replies To: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

#2 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is online

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:52 PM

Quote

but then the iPhone got rid of Google Maps, and Youtube (I understand their battle against Google, but why replace things with inferior products?).


That wasn't just a 'battle' with Google. Google has their own OS and phones. They were deliberately not updating the iOS versions of Google Maps and YouTube; presumably to make the phones using their OS look and perform better.

So the real question there became "Do we continue to use the inferior product made by Google, or shift to a first generation version made by us {Apple} that we can control and grow to a fully mature product?"

In other words it wasn't a choice of whether or not to move to an inferior product - it was a choice between inferior product 'A' and inferior product 'B', where only 'B' had a hope of growing up into something nice.

Besides, there are so many other navigation apps for iOS that are better than either Google Maps or Apple Maps, I would have thought this to be a minimal issue. For a couple bucks you can download a truly nice GPS/Nav application with built-in searching, favorites, remember my parking space blah blah blah.
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#3 BetaWar  Icon User is offline

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:35 PM

Lol, I think you latched on to the wrong part of the original post, but I see your point. I guess that I don't care so much about a feature set as I do that something works the way I expect it to the first time and I don't have to jump through a ton of hoops to get it there (to a working state). Google's Map and Youtube app on iOS 5 was good and easy to use, I don't care that they didn't have all the features, they did what I wanted.

An Archlinux ISO that doesn't come with an installer program or instructions on how to easily get the OS installed is quite annoying. I mean Fedora is easier to install properly at this point and it is supposedly a more advanced distro.
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#4 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 08 October 2012 - 02:41 PM

I always figured that was part of the sexy appeal of linux - the "base level entrance exam for intelligence" needed to just run the darn thing. You know the old "Oh you are not l33t until you had to recompile your on kernel and spend a weekend of obscure hacking to get this distro to work" sort of brand of awesome.
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#5 jimblumberg  Icon User is offline

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

I don't think you are alone with wanting an install program that does most of the work. But in my opinion you won't get that from Arch Linux. Have you considered one of the other distributions, for example Fedora, Mageia, PCLinuxOS, ?Buntu, Debian? Here is a link to a list of distros.

Jim
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#6 BetaWar  Icon User is offline

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:43 PM

Arch actually used to give you a fairly nice installer, but have since removed it.

I have looked at the list of distros and have considered using a few others, but haven't got around to trying them out (always try before you buy). Ubuntu I lost faith in when they decided to ditch gnome2 for unity. I have tried Fedora, but never really got too into it. I like Arch quite a bit, just am annoyed that they are changing things (I actually have 2 physical boxes inhouse running Arch as their sole OS). I am intrigued by Asianux and a couple others, so I may try them out when time allows.
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#7 no2pencil  Icon User is online

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:36 AM

Though I've never Aarch, I was under the impression that it was a bare-bones install by default, & that any toolset needed to be installed after the OS.

This is how slackware has always been, & I believe these are referred to as 'minimalist' installs.

View PostBetaWar, on 08 October 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

People like ease of use, so why is it that companies out there seem to be removing useful tools from their products?

People do like ease of use, & these users use Ubuntu. Slackware doesn't even come with a package manger. It's a matter of choice, you install & use what you like.

It isn't about convenience, it's about choice.
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#8 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:36 PM

"I object to doing things that computers can do."

- Olin Shivers
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#9 wordswords  Icon User is offline

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Re: Removing working tools from an OS/ distro...

Posted 10 October 2012 - 07:19 AM

I used to run Arch Linux, and I chose it specifically because I was an 'advanced' Linux user and I wanted to build my distro from scratch. If you're having problems, I would switch to a more user-friendly distro, such as Ubuntu, Mint, Crunchbang. There are many more Linux distros that cater towards the beginner-intermediate user, than to the advanced, so you should be in good company.
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