Plans for the future?

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#1 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Plans for the future?

Post icon  Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:21 AM

It looks to me like the days of owning the software you develop are numbered. From what I've seen in the presentations regarding Microsoft's new OS, you will no longer be able to sell or distribute software except through their app store. I believe Apple has done this from the beginning. Android is more of a phone OS than a computer OS but they also have an app store.

Of course, in the new Windows you will be able to sell "legacy" (outdated) software as a "desktop" app. From what I can see, that means it will run inside of a Windows 7 emmulator app until MS decides to no longer make the emmulator app. But that's still saying that you can't distribute modern (current OS) apps without going through their app store.

So, it seems to me that the two major OS's, Windows and Mac, are locking down all software that runs on their platform so that they have partial ownership and total control over it. Google is still out there, but I don't know that they really have a PC OS.

Seems, the only thing left is Linux. But Linux has historically had the problem of "no one writes software for it". So, no one wants to run an OS that can't run the software that they buy. I hear Steam and Valve are working to change that in the game industry (largely due to MS locking down Windows).

So I was wondering, as software developers, what are you guys planning on doing about this? Anything? Is everyone just going to go with the flow and write software for the app stores? Is anyone planning on starting a Linux revolution? Are developers even aware that this is what's happening? Has anyone taken any steps regarding this, or is everyone just waiting to see what everyone else is going to do?

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Replies To: Plans for the future?

#2 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:34 AM

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From what I've seen in the presentations regarding Microsoft's new OS, you will no longer be able to sell or distribute software except through their app store. I believe Apple has done this from the beginning.


Stop. You're talking through your hat. Anyone can build an application, build an installer for it, and sell it through download or hard distribution (CD, flash drive). There are no mechinisms in either OS that stop an installer from running if it was NOT sold through the OS maker's store.

Since the rest of your rant is based on a misunderstanding... well, its meaningless.
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#3 Martyr2  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:08 AM

While I don't think this has happened "yet" you do have to admit that it is one large step in that direction though. So I don't think we can simply dismiss the OP that easily.

Microsoft has made huge efforts in flooding the net with documentation/advertising/discussion that when you create for Windows 8 that it should be through the Windows Store. Now while I know that Microsoft can't afford to go completely through the store as of yet (since there are billions of applications out there that need to run into the notable future) I can see them doing this eventually.

I found it a bit difficult to even find a search result on Google that directly says that you can develop independently of the store on Windows 8. Microsoft has been flooding the net with Windows Store development content for at least a year if not more.

The only reason I can say that installing and developing normal apps is still supported is the fact that Visual Studio 2012 allows it and they developed that knowing Windows 8 was coming. However, Microsoft is so desperate these days I can easily see them migrating the world of PC users over to using their store only... it appears their only choice to truly capitalize on a store that can beat Apple and usher in a new era of cash cow for the company that will last the next decade or more.

Can anyone provide a nice article directly from Microsoft stating that they support apps outside of app store distribution? Preferably something within the last 3 months. I would like to read it over.

Thanks! :)

This post has been edited by Martyr2: 28 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

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#4 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:18 AM

Frankly, I don't know many businesses that go out of their way to spend money on advertising/marketing that says "You don't have to use our service."

Its just not good business strategy.

By the same token can anyone find an article that says "We have STOPPED supporting independent developers from selling their software outside of our store" ?

To say they are flooding the net with contests and advertising for their store is simply to say their marketing people are VERY busy and doing their best to compete against everyone else flooding the market with advertising for THEIR app stores.

App stores have proven to be a good revenue stream, and every OS maker is doing their best to get as big a piece of the pie as possible. But I don't think they are crazy enough to think they can stop supporting outside developers: It would kill the adoption of their OS.
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#5 Martyr2  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:28 AM

To tell developers that they don't have to use their store is not all bad. In the end they want developers to continuing developing for their platform... if it is not through their store then they will certainly want them to continue developing for Windows than going to Mac or Linux.

I am sure the marketing people are doing their job superbly and I agree, they don't have anything out there that says they stop supporting outside development either. There is really no content either way on that.

I understand where Microsoft is coming from and they are doing it right from a business stand point, but you have to wonder though. If all the advertising works and a large portion of developers start developing for the store, lets say 70% of them, I could easily see them cutting off the rest and forcing them to go through the store. They will surely make that decision when that time comes. But I don't think we can say never. If it means that they can get developers through the same channel where Microsoft can control what is published or not, what runs on their system or not they can do exactly what Apple does and in a way censor content. This may lead to more stable systems or it may not. Who really knows?

:)
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#6 creativecoding  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:31 AM

Honestly if that happens, who cares. I mean, it's their OS. You have to jump through their hoops. You shouldn't expect to be able to do everything. If they want to lock it down and only allow programs from the app store to be downloaded, then that's their decision and something you're going to have to obey if you want to cater to the Windows market.

I mean, it's pretty smart for Microsoft. They have one of the top three browsers, and they want to make more money off it. An app store would be perfect. Developers have an easy deployment platform and customers have an easy way to find/manage/install software. All for a small royalty fee (30%, 20% for over $25k paid). I'm unsure if you could put a free app on the market, but I know you can charge through third party and Microsoft will not take a cut.

As I'm reading about it now, the store also includes some nice features including quality control (no more worrying about malicious or bad programs!) and built in trial period control so clients can try before they buy.


So, yeah, I really don't see you concerns. What I see is you paying 30% royalties + entrance fee for a good service.
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#7 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:51 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 28 October 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Quote

From what I've seen in the presentations regarding Microsoft's new OS, you will no longer be able to sell or distribute software except through their app store. I believe Apple has done this from the beginning.


Stop. You're talking through your hat. Anyone can build an application, build an installer for it, and sell it through download or hard distribution (CD, flash drive). There are no mechinisms in either OS that stop an installer from running if it was NOT sold through the OS maker's store.

Since the rest of your rant is based on a misunderstanding... well, its meaningless.


Actually, I think you're wrong. I haven't tried building any Win8 apps, so I only know what I read on the Internet and what I hear Microsoft themselves say in their presentations. But, if you can distribute software outside of the Windows store, then why are Steam and Valve declaring war?

When I read about the fight with Steam and Valve it's because there is no way to distribute Win8 software outside of the app store. Here's an article:

http://www.inquisitr...ame-developers/

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"Any user who runs Windows 8 and wishes to install a game that integrates with the new user interface will ONLY be able to download the software through the Windows Store."


Notice when they say "that integrates with the new user interface" the new user interface is Windows. The other option is to go through the emmulator app.

I can't remember in which Windows presentation it was that Microsoft basically said the same thing. I saw it on Channel9. But in that presentation, my understanding was that Microsoft was officially saying no software for Windows 8 (or likely future versions of Windows) can be sold outside of their app store. They tried to calm everyones' concerns with that by saying that you can still sell your app as a "desktop" app (that runs in the Win7 emmulator). Which further shows that they were actually saying "no Win8 software outside of the app store".

So, unless someone has actually built a Metro app and transfered it to someone else's computer, I think it remains to be seen whether it can be done. And even if it can be done, can it legally be done when selling an app.

Again, what are Steam and Valve getting all worked up about if it's nothing more than another distribution channel? It's only a problem for Steam if it cuts them completly out of the market. And they're turning to Linux because of it.

This post has been edited by BBeck: 28 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

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#8 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:05 PM

Here's another article that says Windows 8 is a closed platform that is no longer open to independant distribution.

http://techland.time...ntent-creators/
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#9 Martyr2  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:16 PM

Well actually the new interface I think they are talking about is Metro mostly. I think games will continue to be able to run on the OS and be playable, they just won't have access to many of the new Metro features available through Windows 8. For instance maybe they won't be able to create a game that creates its own animated tile. Perhaps it will just be a static tile.

Then they go on, in that article you cited, to say that their main concerns are with the rules established to be on the store, not that they can't be installed outside the store. Additionally they say by establishing these rules for Metro enabled apps that they are going to force out big players. Perhaps... but this really has nothing to do with whether or not the apps will run on Windows 8. They apparently will, but without Metro style features. Perhaps only through a Windows 7 emulator? That I am not sure of.

:)

Btw, thanks for the articles.
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#10 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:28 PM

Certainly I believe the new interface they are talking about is Metro. But from everything I've seen Metro is Windows 8; if it's not Metro then it's legacy software.

I was under the impression the only way to run non-Metro/Win8 software is to run it through the Desktop app, which seems to me to basically just be a Windows 7 emmulator. That allows them to say that all old/legacy software will still run in Windows 8.

I mean, I'm sure that once you open the actual application it runs just like it did in Windows 7. But you have to go through the extra step of starting it through the Desktop app. And it's my understanding that it's not running as a Windows 8 process, but is actually running inside the Desktop process. So, it's fully backwards compatible because it's running in a virtual Windows 7 machine, but it's not able to really take advantage of anything with in Windows 8 because it's not really running as a Windows 8 process.

I was kind of hoping someone maybe would have had a chance to play around with developing some Metro apps and have had some actual experience with it. I haven't actually had a chance to get my hands on Windows 8 yet or develop any code for it. So, I'm just going on what I'm hearing. It's just that what I'm hearing makes my really uncomfortable. I'm not sure I even want to own Windows 8, if I can't develop current software for it without distributing it (free or for a price) through their app store.
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#11 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:33 PM

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I haven't tried building any Win8 apps,


Well I have. Nothing big or fancy. Just a test of VS12 and Win8.

I had no problem building a simple "Hello World", building an installer, stick it on a USB stick, go to my Win8 laptop and install it and have it run.

So yeah, an independent builder can make Win8 applications.

Not to sound rude, but I'll give you the same advice as every other noobie should get: Give it a try. Experiment. Go for it. Its amazing how much one can learn by trial and error, rather than regurgitating what someone else wrote with no actual hands-on.
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#12 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 12:51 PM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 28 October 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Well I have. Nothing big or fancy. Just a test of VS12 and Win8.

I had no problem building a simple "Hello World", building an installer, stick it on a USB stick, go to my Win8 laptop and install it and have it run.

So yeah, an independent builder can make Win8 applications.

Not to sound rude, but I'll give you the same advice as every other noobie should get: Give it a try. Experiment. Go for it. Its amazing how much one can learn by trial and error, rather than regurgitating what someone else wrote with no actual hands-on.


Well, that's reassuring. So you did a Metro app (with a tile and so fourth), compiled it, and moved the executable over to another machine? It wasn't a Desktop app?

Maybe I'll see if I can setup a VM and install it or something.

Here's an interesting article where Dvorak says he thinks the day is at least "coming" where Windows becomes a closed system.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2397240,00.asp
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#13 johnp_80  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostBBeck, on 28 October 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

It looks to me like the days of owning the software you develop are numbered. From what I've seen in the presentations regarding Microsoft's new OS, you will no longer be able to sell or distribute software except through their app store. I believe Apple has done this from the beginning. Android is more of a phone OS than a computer OS but they also have an app store.

Of course, in the new Windows you will be able to sell "legacy" (outdated) software as a "desktop" app. From what I can see, that means it will run inside of a Windows 7 emmulator app until MS decides to no longer make the emmulator app. But that's still saying that you can't distribute modern (current OS) apps without going through their app store.

In Windows 8, Desktop apps are capable of running, no matter the source. In order to install a "Modern" app, you have to go through the Windows Store. I personally do not see this changing for the desktop versions of any OS that Microsoft builds. This is due to the long lasting legacy support that they provide. Blocking third-party apps would be declaring war on the most profitable(I believe at least) part of their business-the enterprise. I don't see them going full scale Mozilla or Apple here..

Windows RT is a different story altoghether. It is limited to apps from the Windows Store. Since Windows RT is only for the Surface and other tablets, then personally, it does not really bother me.
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#14 ishkabible  Icon User is offline

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:10 PM

Most software I use is already free. I don't really care who owns it so long as some basic quality, safety, and security needs are met. I think things will just to move more to programing firms making things for other business, in house applications, and paid for by advertising type stuff. Google has really got the hang of it already. The are big applications that people pay lots of money for in order to have something like word, nortan anti-virus, etc... and those will probably adapt to what ever windows throws...hell they probably help shape it. Other expensive more technique software will find a way to adapt too. This is what the consumers tend to want and/or what makes money.

My dad for instance has used a program called CQG for years now. When he started they gave you the hardware, then they gave some different hardware, then it adapted to other operating systems including DOS and win32. going all the way from a land line with specialized hardware to a pretty win32 application that runs on windows 7. They have adapted like all other software will.

This post has been edited by ishkabible: 28 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

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#15 no2pencil  Icon User is online

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Re: Plans for the future?

Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:06 PM

The future of development is 'Software as a Service' anyway. Imo, standard installation type programs have been going away since the day after Cloud Computing was introduced.
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