Game Programming in 2012?

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#16 syndrome92  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Programming in 2012?

Posted 25 November 2012 - 02:37 AM

View PostButchDean, on 24 November 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

View Postsyndrome92, on 24 November 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

View PostButchDean, on 23 November 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

If you want to be a PS3 programmer I can't see any other way of you getting the job without studying hard and knowing your stuff.


Just one last thing...
Can you please elaborate the above statement? Like (and this may sound a bit amateur of me) what does 'studying hard and knowing your stuff' exactly mean? I'm asking in terms of what specific topics are you talking about, or are you just saying in general terms...?
Again thanks! :)/>/>/>/>

Well, think about it. If you want to work on PS3 you're going to be working on games, or tech relating to making games, so learn how to make games well!

Once you learn find your niche (be it graphics, AI or whatever) and learn even more. Also stat up-to-date.


YOU ROCK!! :punk:/> And "stay up-to-date" i surely will!
Thanks a million for the advice!
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#17 anonymous26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Programming in 2012?

Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:35 AM

No problem. Good luck. :)
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#18 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Programming in 2012?

Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:33 AM

View Postsyndrome92, on 21 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

First of all, hi to everyone! I'm kinda new here and i have a few inquiries that i hope can be answered.

Second, I'm not that new to game programming as I have programmed one or two games in XNA as a semester project and was amazed at how fast and easy XNA truly was. Still, I'm not a professional. With the release of Windows 8, I surfed around the net, browsing from forum to forum just so I can know where XNA is headed. Most forums claim that "you can't develop games 'native' to the Windows 8 OS, although there is a workaround to it by installing XNA4.0, but it would still be 'legacy code'. You can still develop games for Windows Phones 7 and 8 as well as Xbox360 with XNA."

Third, I like to develop games for PC, Xbox360 and PS3 (ESPECIALLY Playstation 3).

So my questions are:-

1. Should i still pursue game development using XNA, considering the above facts? As i said, I really liked XNA a lot and would really prefer it.

2. If, in the case that XNA doesn't flourish, what will be my next best alternative? Most people refer the combination of OpenGL/C++ as the next best alternative to game development to me. I have done VERY basic programming in OpenGL (e.g. drawing a triangle on the screen) and let me just say that, honestly, XNA/C# has spoilt me considerably. :D/>/> Whenever I look at opengl/c++ code, it all seems overwhelming now... But I'm willing to learn anything that's new to me and most of all, a VERY good option in the long run. So, any advice?

3. There is also an option of using already-made game engines, too. Game engines like Unity3d and UDK (based on Unreal Engine 3) seem to be very good players but are very costly. What's more, they already have the option of releasing your games on multiple platforms, but apart from UDK, I see that Unity3d only allows games for PSN and Xbox LIVE. I wanna make games for the PS3 platform! Opinions, please?

I already know that in order to develop games for PS3 (or any other console), you have to first become a "certified" developer in the eyes of Sony; only then they can sell you their development kits. How much they cost is another story, but my main concern is to get ready for what seem to be best option for me to develop games when I can afford a PS3 development kit.

Thanks in advance...! :)/>/>

P.S: I'm doing my undergraduate program in computer science and I also like 3d modelling and animation. So, I have a fair amount of "experience" in creating programs using C, C++ and C#. Apart from that, like i said, I'm willing to learn anything that's best for me in the long run...!



I'm kind of the XNA cheerleader around here. And I have to say that I'm kind of asking myself basically the same questions. It really appears XNA is dead, especially now that Windows 8 has been released and they still aren't saying anything about XNA. I think all the insiders feel that it's pretty clear that XNA is dead. That's really depressing for me, because I can't seem to find any real replacement for it. And my biggest disappointment in that is that if I continue to develop in XNA, I'm probably mostly on my own because no one else is getting into it anymore. So, you won't have much of a community to collaberate with.

Since I haven't found anything to replace it, I still have to say XNA is the only way to learn. I mean if we're talking 2D you could learn that in pretty much any environment and that's probably the place to start with C++/DirectX or whatever. But 3D is REALLY rough to learn, and there's little to no help learning it outside of XNA. That's what XNA is really good for is learning 3D, because there are just far more books and whatnot out there written on either XNA 3.0 or XNA 4.0 that explain 3D than anything I've ever seen in C++ (although a lot of the advanced graphics stuff for XNA - like HLSL - is actually from books written for C++ since HLSL is the same for C++ as it is for C#/XNA and they generally assume you are using C++).

As a learning environment, XNA just can't be beat from what I've seen. It's no longer supported by Microsoft. It still works on Windows Phone 7 and XBox 360 because those are legacy product about to be replaced just like it still works in Windows 7. It also will run as a legacy Desktop app in Windows 8 from what I hear. So, I don't think there's any future at all in it trying to do something commercially.

But for learning, you can still use it and learn probably more from XNA than just about anything else. C# and XNA are both very rich libraries/frameworks. They help you focus on writing a game, rather than getting caught up in things like memory management (which you need to learn eventually, but you are also likely to get more help with in C++ than game code). XNA allows even a novice to get started, because it can be pretty easy, but it allows you to also get very deep into 3D graphics with HLSL and such. And like I said, there's a lot of REALLY good books and whatnot in XNA to teach you all sorts of complicated 3D programming stuff (or even for 2D XNA helps you get straight to the game programming work). But outside of what's already been published, you're pretty much on your own now with XNA because the XNA community is dying, and that's what concerns me the most about XNA.

So, I still recommend XNA - with reservations. It's a near perfect stepping stone into C++/DirectX, but it's in the process of going away along with the community around it. It's a real shame because I don't think there's anything to replace it. C++ and DirectX is not at all a small jump, especially when we're talking 3D. "Perhaps" you can find some libraries for C++ that will help like STL, but there's just nothing that is as rich as the .Net framework, especially for free - not that I'm aware of anyway.

If you even come close to mastering XNA you will be 1,000 times more prepared to tackle C++/DirectX. You'll go in already knowing what it is you're trying to achieve, even if you don't know the specifics of how to do it, because you've done it before in XNA. 90% of what you will be doing in C++/DirectX is exactly the same as what you would do in C#/XNA, it's just XNA is a friendlier environment to learn it in. For example, a skybox is a skybox; it doesn't matter whether it's XNA or DirectX, if your game calls for a skybox you code a box and texture it. That's a concept that's not tied to any one computer language. But you have to learn what a skybox is and how it's used no matter what language you're working in. And you can learn all of that stuff in a friendly environment like XNA, or a pretty "hostile" environment like DirectX. If you walk in already knowing how to do pretty much everything and "just" needing to learn to redo it in C++/DirectX, it will be a whole lot easier - especially since you will have new things to worry about in C++, like memory management.

Anyway, consider moving forward with XNA until you've learned everything you can in XNA. It's a real drag with the XNA community dying out, but I think it's still the easiest environment to learn really hardcore 3D stuff in. Then once you've learned what you're doing, then you can always move to another language that you can use to build commercial products.
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#19 anonymous26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Programming in 2012?

Posted 29 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

I personally don't believe in flogging dead horses. XNA is gone, and learning an obsolete technology actually hinders you because it means you are not keeping up-to-date with the latest techniques. I personally have never touched XNA, although I've come close out of curiosity, and I appear to be fine.

Learning '3D stuff' is about learning the theory, not how to implement your routines on a specific framework - more so an obsolete one!

Game development takes an extreme amount of effort to learn, and there is no way around that fact. When you have learned enough it will come to you easier.
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#20 syndrome92  Icon User is offline

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Re: Game Programming in 2012?

Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:23 AM

View PostBBeck, on 29 November 2012 - 06:33 AM, said:

View Postsyndrome92, on 21 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

First of all, hi to everyone! I'm kinda new here and i have a few inquiries that i hope can be answered.

Second, I'm not that new to game programming as I have programmed one or two games in XNA as a semester project and was amazed at how fast and easy XNA truly was. Still, I'm not a professional. With the release of Windows 8, I surfed around the net, browsing from forum to forum just so I can know where XNA is headed. Most forums claim that "you can't develop games 'native' to the Windows 8 OS, although there is a workaround to it by installing XNA4.0, but it would still be 'legacy code'. You can still develop games for Windows Phones 7 and 8 as well as Xbox360 with XNA."

Third, I like to develop games for PC, Xbox360 and PS3 (ESPECIALLY Playstation 3).

So my questions are:-

1. Should i still pursue game development using XNA, considering the above facts? As i said, I really liked XNA a lot and would really prefer it.

2. If, in the case that XNA doesn't flourish, what will be my next best alternative? Most people refer the combination of OpenGL/C++ as the next best alternative to game development to me. I have done VERY basic programming in OpenGL (e.g. drawing a triangle on the screen) and let me just say that, honestly, XNA/C# has spoilt me considerably. :D/>/>/>/>/>/> Whenever I look at opengl/c++ code, it all seems overwhelming now... But I'm willing to learn anything that's new to me and most of all, a VERY good option in the long run. So, any advice?

3. There is also an option of using already-made game engines, too. Game engines like Unity3d and UDK (based on Unreal Engine 3) seem to be very good players but are very costly. What's more, they already have the option of releasing your games on multiple platforms, but apart from UDK, I see that Unity3d only allows games for PSN and Xbox LIVE. I wanna make games for the PS3 platform! Opinions, please?

I already know that in order to develop games for PS3 (or any other console), you have to first become a "certified" developer in the eyes of Sony; only then they can sell you their development kits. How much they cost is another story, but my main concern is to get ready for what seem to be best option for me to develop games when I can afford a PS3 development kit.

Thanks in advance...! :)/>/>/>/>/>/>

P.S: I'm doing my undergraduate program in computer science and I also like 3d modelling and animation. So, I have a fair amount of "experience" in creating programs using C, C++ and C#. Apart from that, like i said, I'm willing to learn anything that's best for me in the long run...!



I'm kind of the XNA cheerleader around here. And I have to say that I'm kind of asking myself basically the same questions. It really appears XNA is dead, especially now that Windows 8 has been released and they still aren't saying anything about XNA. I think all the insiders feel that it's pretty clear that XNA is dead. That's really depressing for me, because I can't seem to find any real replacement for it. And my biggest disappointment in that is that if I continue to develop in XNA, I'm probably mostly on my own because no one else is getting into it anymore. So, you won't have much of a community to collaberate with.

Since I haven't found anything to replace it, I still have to say XNA is the only way to learn. I mean if we're talking 2D you could learn that in pretty much any environment and that's probably the place to start with C++/DirectX or whatever. But 3D is REALLY rough to learn, and there's little to no help learning it outside of XNA. That's what XNA is really good for is learning 3D, because there are just far more books and whatnot out there written on either XNA 3.0 or XNA 4.0 that explain 3D than anything I've ever seen in C++ (although a lot of the advanced graphics stuff for XNA - like HLSL - is actually from books written for C++ since HLSL is the same for C++ as it is for C#/XNA and they generally assume you are using C++).

As a learning environment, XNA just can't be beat from what I've seen. It's no longer supported by Microsoft. It still works on Windows Phone 7 and XBox 360 because those are legacy product about to be replaced just like it still works in Windows 7. It also will run as a legacy Desktop app in Windows 8 from what I hear. So, I don't think there's any future at all in it trying to do something commercially.

But for learning, you can still use it and learn probably more from XNA than just about anything else. C# and XNA are both very rich libraries/frameworks. They help you focus on writing a game, rather than getting caught up in things like memory management (which you need to learn eventually, but you are also likely to get more help with in C++ than game code). XNA allows even a novice to get started, because it can be pretty easy, but it allows you to also get very deep into 3D graphics with HLSL and such. And like I said, there's a lot of REALLY good books and whatnot in XNA to teach you all sorts of complicated 3D programming stuff (or even for 2D XNA helps you get straight to the game programming work). But outside of what's already been published, you're pretty much on your own now with XNA because the XNA community is dying, and that's what concerns me the most about XNA.

So, I still recommend XNA - with reservations. It's a near perfect stepping stone into C++/DirectX, but it's in the process of going away along with the community around it. It's a real shame because I don't think there's anything to replace it. C++ and DirectX is not at all a small jump, especially when we're talking 3D. "Perhaps" you can find some libraries for C++ that will help like STL, but there's just nothing that is as rich as the .Net framework, especially for free - not that I'm aware of anyway.

If you even come close to mastering XNA you will be 1,000 times more prepared to tackle C++/DirectX. You'll go in already knowing what it is you're trying to achieve, even if you don't know the specifics of how to do it, because you've done it before in XNA. 90% of what you will be doing in C++/DirectX is exactly the same as what you would do in C#/XNA, it's just XNA is a friendlier environment to learn it in. For example, a skybox is a skybox; it doesn't matter whether it's XNA or DirectX, if your game calls for a skybox you code a box and texture it. That's a concept that's not tied to any one computer language. But you have to learn what a skybox is and how it's used no matter what language you're working in. And you can learn all of that stuff in a friendly environment like XNA, or a pretty "hostile" environment like DirectX. If you walk in already knowing how to do pretty much everything and "just" needing to learn to redo it in C++/DirectX, it will be a whole lot easier - especially since you will have new things to worry about in C++, like memory management.

Anyway, consider moving forward with XNA until you've learned everything you can in XNA. It's a real drag with the XNA community dying out, but I think it's still the easiest environment to learn really hardcore 3D stuff in. Then once you've learned what you're doing, then you can always move to another language that you can use to build commercial products.



I think i'm gonna have to go with ButchDean on this one... I mean, its true that learning game programming through XNA/C# is really "user-friendly", but if I was really going for user-friendliness, wouldn't I have gone with any existing game engine, like Unreal Development Kit (based in Unreal Engine 3) or Unity3d or Torque Game Engine...? or maybe even CryEngine... ?

Most game engines are cross-platform, some are even available for consoles, but still, it wouldn't make me a 'game programmer'.... It would just show that i know how to use the tools... The "theory" isn't there...

But one thing I do agree with you, is that I, too, will be very disappointed with XNA being shelved/passing-away/obselete... No matter what anyone says, XNA made me, a noob at game programming, actually realize the difference in playing video games, and making them...!

Still, you make a good point: learning the 'basics' of game programming through XNA, and then moving onto the real thing...! That way, it'll be a bit easy for anyone to grasp the concepts...!

But you have to admit, XNA-will-be-dead-one-day... and then, we'll all have to move on...!
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