Success is my only option failure is not

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134 Replies - 4973 Views - Last Post: 01 February 2013 - 01:44 PM

#31 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:54 PM

View PostWolfCoder, on 28 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

If you knew me better, you'd be impressed at the intense force at which I shall excuse this sexism as unintentional.


Do you even English?
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#32 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:03 PM

Let it go jon, he'll just link to something about gerund construction or something and then tell you you're confusing convolution for syntax...
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#33 NecroWinter  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:25 PM

View PostWolfCoder, on 28 January 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

View PostNecroWinter, on 28 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

...I've noticed a ton of girls who lack self confidence, and this is why I've seen so many girls drop out of computer related degrees, despite being smart enough to actually understand the material,



If you knew me better, you'd be impressed at the intense force at which I shall excuse this sexism as unintentional.


Unlike you, I always make room to assume my observed statistics are not normal (I add phrases like "I'm still sure X exists, I just haven't met them yet"). My higher level graduate computer science courses are nearly split and have much more females than the lower level courses, but this is just an observation on eight classes worth of students or ~100 samples which makes this observation as virtually meaningless as your observation.


im just pointing out that the girls ive encountered generally had no self confidence, and that was why they dropped the classes. I believe they were smart enough to handle the material, but there are sociological reasons for this. Unfortunately, I believe women aren't really encouraged to enter these fields, among other things. Its really just anecdotes, and I see no sexism without "putting words in my mouth".

If you honestly believe theres even room in my post to imply that women always lack self confidence, or that women cant or dont ever do these things, then you made a mistake reading what I posted. If I thought this, I would plainly state it.

This post has been edited by NecroWinter: 28 January 2013 - 01:30 PM

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#34 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:32 PM

View PostNecroWinter, on 28 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

im just pointing out that the girls ive encountered generally had no self confidence, and that was why they dropped the classes. I believe they were smart enough to handle the material, but there are sociological reasons for this. Unfortunately, I believe women aren't really encouraged to enter these fields, among other things. Its really just anecdotes, and I see no sexism without "putting words in my mouth".

If you honestly believe theres even room in my post to imply that women always lack self confidence, or that women cant or dont ever do these things, then you made a mistake reading what I posted. If I thought this, I would plainly state it.



Just stop digging, okay?
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#35 NecroWinter  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:35 PM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 28 January 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

View PostNecroWinter, on 28 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

im just pointing out that the girls ive encountered generally had no self confidence, and that was why they dropped the classes. I believe they were smart enough to handle the material, but there are sociological reasons for this. Unfortunately, I believe women aren't really encouraged to enter these fields, among other things. Its really just anecdotes, and I see no sexism without "putting words in my mouth".

If you honestly believe theres even room in my post to imply that women always lack self confidence, or that women cant or dont ever do these things, then you made a mistake reading what I posted. If I thought this, I would plainly state it.



Just stop digging, okay?


I'm not sure I know what you're getting at.

Do you think I'm "digging" at wolfcoder (in other words trying to agitate)? Or do you think what I said is sexist, and my response is sexist, and that im "digging my grave" so to speak.
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#36 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

No, he means exactly what the fuck you just did again. So you should stop. The proper response to that is to not respond and just move along.
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#37 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:38 PM

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it's funny because even when someone agrees with wolfcoder it's still super awkward.
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#38 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:39 PM

Rhetorically speaking, you're in a hole, and you're only digging youself in deeper.

I wouldn't say you're sexist, but comments like "im just pointing out that the girls ive encountered generally had no self confidence" say a lot more about your ability to observe than they say about the people you've met.

EDIT: @h4nnib4l - or that, yes.

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 28 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

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#39 macosxnerd101  Icon User is online

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

I think we have a case of this:
Posted Image
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#40 NecroWinter  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:46 PM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 28 January 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

Rhetorically speaking, you're in a hole, and you're only digging youself in deeper.

I wouldn't say you're sexist, but comments like "im just pointing out that the girls ive encountered generally had no self confidence" say a lot more about your ability to observe than they say about the people you've met.


Oh, okay.

most people agree that theres a problem in the STEM fields in that women tend to avoid them, and that a lot of them tend to drop out.

I think there are sociological reasons for this, and that they arent "genetic", and that women can do these fields just as well as men, and in many situations they do.

Quote

Jan Cuny
Program director, National Science Foundation's Computing Education for the 21st Century

The gender gap in computer science is partly rooted in long-held popular misconceptions: that computing is too hard for girls, that it's geeky, that it requires a singleminded 24/7 focus, and—maybe worst of all—that computer science equals programming and so provides little benefit to society. Why would this picture be attractive to girls—especially to girls who want to be creative, to make a difference, to change the world?

These misconceptions are too often confirmed by girls' peers, by cues in the popular media, by a lack of role models that run counter to stereotypes, and even by advice from their parents and guidance counselors. Public schools don't generally help. Most teach just basic IT literacy. Even at the secondary level, most American schools do not offer even one rigorous academic computing course. Girls (and boys, for that matter) are not exposed to the underlying concepts of computation, to the creative aspects of algorithm and software design, or to the transformational effect that computing can have across a wide range of disciplines.

http://chronicle.com...t-About/135302/

This reflects my beliefs (to some degree). I see the "gender gap" as a problem, and I acknowledge that it exists. Theres simply no room for it to make me sexist, which is why I continued further with Wolfcoder. As for observations, it seems to be pretty well supported, and its acknowledged to be a societal problem

This post has been edited by NecroWinter: 28 January 2013 - 01:51 PM

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#41 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:52 PM

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a casual observer of necrowinter would deduce that men have a very difficult time putting their thoughts into words.
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#42 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

@NecroWinter: Oh my god... can you just get over it? I mean you are starting to drone on like some damn woman about her day. No one cares outside your attempts to claim not sexist are just becoming hysterically sexist.

Spoiler

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#43 NecroWinter  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

View Postsupersloth, on 28 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

a casual observer of necrowinter would deduce that men have a very difficult time putting their thoughts into words.


If anything, I make the mistake of assuming that I'm always talking to informed readers. I probably shouldn't,..
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#44 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:57 PM

View PostNecroWinter, on 28 January 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

View Postsupersloth, on 28 January 2013 - 01:52 PM, said:

a casual observer of necrowinter would deduce that men have a very difficult time putting their thoughts into words.


If anything, I make the mistake of assuming that I'm always talking to informed readers. I probably shouldn't,..



Oh, please just stop.
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#45 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Success is my only option failure is not

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

View Postsupersloth, on 28 January 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:

it's funny because even when someone agrees with wolfcoder it's still super awkward.


I wouldn't have it any other way~



Even more awkward is that I'm actually defending NecroWinter- I've pointed out that I've held back a knee-jerk (more like a Falcon Kick) reaction because I realize he wasn't trying to be sexist despite how easy it is to interpret as such. I rarely put this much rationality before I resort to emotions.

Though I can only hold back for so long.. If only..
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