Brace for impact

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98 Replies - 4625 Views - Last Post: 10 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

#16 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:15 PM

I'm not particularly a fan of re-implementing High School by keeping the nerds on a leash because they're too smart. Seriously? I'm not too keen on that idea...
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#17 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:13 PM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 27 January 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

The internet is not TV. It's the result of a bunch of smart people making stuff that they thought was cool - and that's all it'll ever be. If you want to get different internet, you need to get more smart people making stuff, not more stupid people making rules about the smart people making stuff.

No, that's just your opinion of the internet. It's much larger than that. It includes everything from grandparents video chatting with their kids and grandchildren to pre-teen and teen age girls sending texts to each other. Let's not forget all the shopping sites too! It also happens to include techie sites, but they occupy a very small niche of the internet.

TV is also the result of a bunch of smart people making stuff they thought was cool, and it too quickly changed into something different.

View PostLemur, on 27 January 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I'm not particularly a fan of re-implementing High School by keeping the nerds on a leash because they're too smart. Seriously? I'm not too keen on that idea...

I'm in favor of keeping them on a leash because they're not nearly as smart as they think they are. Clever is not smart, and neither is anyone who thinks they have a right to do something simply because they have the power to do it. Funny how these same people don't like it when a "dumb jock" pulls the same sort of crap on them.
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#18 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:29 PM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 27 January 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 27 January 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

The internet is not TV. It's the result of a bunch of smart people making stuff that they thought was cool - and that's all it'll ever be. If you want to get different internet, you need to get more smart people making stuff, not more stupid people making rules about the smart people making stuff.

No, that's just your opinion of the internet. It's much larger than that. It includes everything from grandparents video chatting with their kids and grandchildren to pre-teen and teen age girls sending texts to each other. Let's not forget all the shopping sites too! It also happens to include techie sites, but they occupy a very small niche of the internet.


I was about to try to respond to this, but then I realized that there's absolutely no point. Have fun!
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#19 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:32 PM

So you're in favor of keeping us on a leash because we're in a niche market? We're only good when we need to build something aren't we? Otherwise we should keep in our basements and not say a word, should we?

You know what I tend to say to people that tell me some garbage like that? I'd like a Dr Pepper with that.

Perhaps you're forgetting that the alpha male of the current day is the geek, and as a geek I don't intend to go hide in a closet. We're past that nonsense, come again when you're out of the 1980s.

Without people like us, there is no internet and there will be no more progress. I don't care who uses it or what it's used for, discounting geeks is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

This post has been edited by Lemur: 26 January 2013 - 11:43 PM

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#20 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:51 PM

I'm not discounting anyone. You're over rating a tiny percentage of the world. In fact, you're over rating a tiny percentage (computer geeks) of a tiny percentage (all geeks) of the entire world. You're assuming that the world couldn't get along without that small niche, and that's the dumbest assumption I've ever heard of. We don't even know if the internet will turn out to be a good thing or a bad thing yet! It hasn't been around long enough to determine what the long term effects on society will be!
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#21 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 12:00 AM

...and with that reply, I'm done. That's so insurmountably ignorant I can't justify trying to argue this anymore. Have fun ranting on that subject, but I guarantee it's going to rub quite a few people the wrong way.
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#22 Atli  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:10 AM

The long term effects may not be know yet, CTphpnwb, but the internet has in a very short time had an extreme effect on how human society works. At least in our part of the world.

Without that small niche; the geeks, to keep it running, quite a few areas of our daily lives would have to regress to an arguably less convenient and efficient state. Sure, the world would keep spinning, and the people would keep doing their best to destroy it, but very few would go on without being negatively affected to some degree.
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#23 baavgai  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:06 AM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 26 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

That's basically what Napster's position was, and it's just as wrong now as it was then.


That's a little broad. I'm not quite sure part of my statement you're applying this to.

View PostCTphpnwb, on 26 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

Those techies believed that IP was only IP if they owned it, and that musicians couldn't own IP because they weren't techies.


I'm at a total loss as to how this relates to anything I posted.


View PostCTphpnwb, on 26 January 2013 - 08:07 PM, said:

the thief who steals a rolex reduces the value of them all


No.

In the physical world, this actually increases value, because the demand of paying customers hasn't changed, but the supply has been reduced.

In the virtual world, which I believe is the topic at hand, neither of our assumptions of theft economics come into play. The product is also virtual and copies do not reduce inventory or incur replacement costs. Because of this, the entity whose property was illegally acquired can't make the claim of direct physical loss. This is where it gets tricky and why some feel justified in the theft.

The loss of making a copy is the potential that the copier might have otherwise purchased the produce. No one can estimate that value. The copier might never have spent money on the virtual product. While clearly a theft from the rights holder, it's less clear what the impact of that theft is.
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#24 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:59 AM

You said:

Quote

Curiously, techies tend to have a far better grasp of IP issues than most.

  • I was showing an example where many of them clearly don't. Their attitude amounts to: "I have a tool that allows me to take what I want therefore I have the right."
  • You also said: "There are no reasonable versions." I took this to mean that it is impossible to create a reasonable version, since I was talking about generating one. That's an extreme position that exacerbates point 1's error.


View PostAtli, on 27 January 2013 - 06:10 AM, said:

Without that small niche; the geeks, to keep it running, quite a few areas of our daily lives would have to regress to an arguably less convenient and efficient state. Sure, the world would keep spinning, and the people would keep doing their best to destroy it, but very few would go on without being negatively affected to some degree.

I'm not saying that what they do isn't significant. I'm only saying that the world isn't made up of computer geeks and "worthless fucking morons" that don't know anything about computers. There are many more smart people who don't know much about computers than there are smart people who do! It's disappointing and sad to hear computer geeks act like they're the smartest people in the room when in fact they may not be. Often, they aren't! I work with some brilliant people who are not interested in computers at all. Their work, and their IP is extremely valuable.

Computer geeks would do well to recognize that even in the field of computers there are many significant contributions made by people who are not and were not computer geeks.

View Postbaavgai, on 27 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

In the physical world, this actually increases value, because the demand of paying customers hasn't changed, but the supply has been reduced.

You're assuming that the thief doesn't sell the watch.

This post has been edited by CTphpnwb: 27 January 2013 - 08:11 AM

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#25 baavgai  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 08:59 AM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 27 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

I was showing an example where many of them clearly don't. Their attitude amounts to: "I have a tool that allows me to take what I want therefore I have the right."


Thank you for clarifying. I am saying that techies have a keener understanding. I am NOT saying that stops them from stealing, only that they understand that's what they're doing.

There is an active market in selling knitting patterns. They are often downloaded from the author. My wife shows the thing she just made to fellow knitters. They want the pattern. She tells them it's copyrighted. Most respond, "But you can share with me. Really? Are you sure?" The tech type, "Not open source? No problem. I understand."


View PostCTphpnwb, on 27 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

You also said: "There are no reasonable versions." I took this to mean that it is impossible to create a reasonable version, since I was talking about generating one.


Yep. To clarify, all methods of policing and enforcement so far proposed are unreasonable.


View PostCTphpnwb, on 27 January 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

You're assuming that the thief doesn't sell the watch.


You're assuming they stole it from the creator and not, as is almost always the case, a reseller...

This is, however, as previously noted, meaningless when talking about digital copies.
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#26 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:29 AM

If you're saying that the people who founded Napster and the people who used it knew that they were stealing then I'd agree. Remember though, that they claimed they weren't stealing, so either they're complete frauds or they have a worse understanding than your wife's friends.

As for digital copies, I suppose might depend on the price. Would they have bought that $0.99 song if it weren't available for free on a site like Napster? Maybe not, but the probability is certainly much greater than zero so there is harm. Even with an expensive item though, I can't imagine the probability of a sale in the absence of a "free" download always being zero.
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#27 dorknexus  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 11:40 AM

I eagerly await grandstanding legislation to fix this non-problem.
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#28 KYA  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

You wouldn't download an AR-15.
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#29 Python_4_President  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

Huh... Well at least the people in favor of neutering the internet are in the minority in this thread.


@Funkyname:

Quote

It's this kind of thinking that makes computer geeks the object of derision in the real world.


You know what? I don't care. There are people in this world who can read what I write and extract some value from it while simultaneously overlooking the plethora of fuckups in my presentation. Those are the people that matter. People who would focus on the least relevant portion of something I write, or would dismiss it entirely because it is not pre-processed for the effortless consumption of a worthless fucking moron, do not.


Thanks to all who can accept me for who I am. (That is, thanks for not wanting to neuter me because I'm niche, or a minority, or different, or for other reasons.)

This post has been edited by Python_4_President: 27 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

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#30 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: Brace for impact

Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:54 AM

View PostKYA, on 27 January 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

You wouldn't download an AR-15.


I like how you almost can.

View Postbaavgai, on 26 January 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

View PostWolfCoder, on 26 January 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Lots of people I know who aren't even that much into computers are surprisingly savvy about things like this.


Curiously, techies tend to have a far better grasp of IP issues than most. Probably because we see the damage such things as DMCA and broken patent systems to do things we value. In contrast, "regular" people don't usually care. That's not to say the tech savvy don't pirate, but rather that they understand it's stealing and why. Joe User is just happy to get something "free" and ignore the legalities, hands up to ears.
...


I said the opposite thing that you think I did- I am surprised that Joe User isn't just happy to get something free and is actually pointing out the bigger, more important issue. I'm sure they exist, but I haven't actually met someone who said they just like downloading free stuff. At least they seem to grasp the concept of computer freedom if they don't realize this completely.

View PostCTphpnwb, on 26 January 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

...
Freedom without responsibility is just chaos. Every system needs rules in order to function, and the problem these days is that we have all kinds of bad people doing all kinds of bad things in the name of "freedom" but what they're really bringing is anarchy.


This sounds familiar in an eerie way. Something about how it is in human nature that we must be governed.

"but what they're really bringing is anarchy."

You say that like it's a bad thing.
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