[nephtyhephty]

I am sure you get a lot of these threads, but I would love some feedback from you guys. Ok, so I love programming. I honestly think its very fun because you can be so open minded and independent with what you want to do when you program. But the thing that worries me the most is, I'm a freshman in College trying to learn C++, and honestly, as much fun i think programming is, it is also very hard for me. My first semester I learned C, now (Second sem.) we are programming in C++, while studying from the book which is in Java.

I want to know, is programming really this hard for everyone? I am willing to work really hard, but that "Programming isn't for everyone" quote scares me . The trouble I have is learning complicated syntax. Is it like this for every newcomer to programming?

[cfoley]

Syntax is just a matter of practice. The more frequently you use it, the sooner it becomes second nature.

Learning c++ from a Java book sounds a bit crazy. There is a lot of overlap but also some very important differences.

[modi123_1]

I would doubt learning is the same for everyone.. and yes.. programming *is* hard, but once you get the hang of the theory and science of it all the syntax just becomes just a weekend chore. Why is it uniquely hard for you? I am not sure - I don't know who you are or what you are all about, but I do believe most everyone can, eventually, learn to program.

[Lemur]

If you want a clue to the other side of programming, try out "The Little Schemer" and see how that works for you. It's not necessarily that programming isn't for everyone, but rather that all the industrial and business languages have a lot of very irrelevant and repeated code elements everywhere. The closer you get to the core concept of programming, the more you really learn it. Syntax should never be the line in the sand.

Scheme is a language on the functional side of things, and is very very minimalist. The Little Schemer will give you a step by step of how everything is made. Think of it as a ground up method rather than worrying about psuedo-problems and cumbersome syntax rules. Do realize that with this freedom comes a lot of work as well, just some people more naturally flow towards this side of things.

The beauty of it is if you truly understand Scheme you can get a much better grasp on any other language. It's recommended for most senior programmers to give at least one LISP dialect a shot to broaden their horizons and have that zen moment thing.

Either way, it's $10-15 you won't regret spending if you really want to be better: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0262560992

[nephtyhephty]

Lemur, on 19 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

If you want a clue to the other side of programming, try out "The Little Schemer" and see how that works for you. It's not necessarily that programming isn't for everyone, but rather that all the industrial and business languages have a lot of very irrelevant and repeated code elements everywhere. The closer you get to the core concept of programming, the more you really learn it. Syntax should never be the line in the sand.

Scheme is a language on the functional side of things, and is very very minimalist. The Little Schemer will give you a step by step of how everything is made. Think of it as a ground up method rather than worrying about psuedo-problems and cumbersome syntax rules. Do realize that with this freedom comes a lot of work as well, just some people more naturally flow towards this side of things.

The beauty of it is if you truly understand Scheme you can get a much better grasp on any other language. It's recommended for most senior programmers to give at least one LISP dialect a shot to broaden their horizons and have that zen moment thing.

Either way, it's $10-15 you won't regret spending if you really want to be better: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0262560992

Does that book help you learn Coding, or is it more "the reason behind the code" and how everything works? Thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate them

Lemur, on 19 February 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

If you want a clue to the other side of programming, try out "The Little Schemer" and see how that works for you. It's not necessarily that programming isn't for everyone, but rather that all the industrial and business languages have a lot of very irrelevant and repeated code elements everywhere. The closer you get to the core concept of programming, the more you really learn it. Syntax should never be the line in the sand.

Scheme is a language on the functional side of things, and is very very minimalist. The Little Schemer will give you a step by step of how everything is made. Think of it as a ground up method rather than worrying about psuedo-problems and cumbersome syntax rules. Do realize that with this freedom comes a lot of work as well, just some people more naturally flow towards this side of things.

The beauty of it is if you truly understand Scheme you can get a much better grasp on any other language. It's recommended for most senior programmers to give at least one LISP dialect a shot to broaden their horizons and have that zen moment thing.

Either way, it's $10-15 you won't regret spending if you really want to be better: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/0262560992

Does that book help you learn Coding, or is it more "the reason behind the code" and how everything works? Thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate them

Sorry for the double post

[Lemur]

Both really.

[jon.kiparsky]

The Little Schemer is mostly about one or two important concepts in programming - basically, the subject is recursion. I love this book, and I think there's a lot to be learned from it, but I'm not sure I share Lemur's conviction that this is the book you need right now. I don't think you'll lose anything by it, but the most important thing you have to know about it is that when you're finished you'll know nothing that can be directly applied to making a program tomorrow. If you want to learn some great ideas, it's absolutely a great book, but if you want to make a working program that does something, you'll still be far from that when you finish with it.

I don't think this is a bad thing, but I'd hate to have you dive into this book and come away from it feeling let down, so I think it's important that you know this up front.
Again: I've raved about the Little Schemer to anyone who will listen for two years now, I think it's a fantastic book and absolutely you'll learn a lot from it - just maybe not right now.

Now, as to your immediate question: yes, programming is hard. I found it hard to learn, and I gave up a few times (granted, the first time I was in grade school, but still...) and eventually I got there. And you know what? I still find it hard on good days. That's part of the fun of it, really. It's hard work - it's fun, it's mind-altering in very good ways (it makes you think in ways you wouldn't otherwise think), and it's extremely satisfying to solve a new problem that gave you a good run for your money, but all of that comes with the fact that it's hard. Frankly, when it's easy, it's boring.

Of course it's hard, there's nothing worth doing that isn't hard work. Fortunately, you live in times when you have a lot of choices - there are lots of hard things that you can do, some of which you might find intersting, and you can also sit around and play video games and work in marketing and do nothing at all with your life, and all of those are okay. You can choose what you want to do. It's your life, you only get one of them, so choose something you'll like, and something you're willing to bust ass to be realy good at. Frankly, from your post I can't tell whether that includes programming or not for you.

Too much pontificating here, you deserve a conrete suggestions: I would suggest you talk to your teacher about the trouble you're having - often, a good teacher will find another way to communicate something that you're having trouble with, if you ask them the right questions. Any teacher who's even remotely worth bothering with will certainly give it a fair try, if you give them a chance.

[tlhIn`toq]

nephtyhephty, on 19 February 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I am sure you get a lot of these threads, but I would love some feedback from you guys.

As the self-designated blunt frank grown-up truth teller around here I'll tell you now that you won't like what I have to say, even if it what you need to hear. So if you aren't prepared for adult-to-adult conversation, don't open the spoiler below.

Spoiler

Yes, we do get a lot of these threads. And every time I see someone that feels those threads don't apply to them it makes me think those are the people that are going to be a huge pain in the ass for some unsuspecting employer. This is the person that thinks he's precious, special unique little rookie that has to have everything worded specifically for them. If he eventually finds work in this industry the mass email to the team won't be right for him, because he'll have to rephrase all the same questions and have all the answers custom tailored to him.

It also makes me wonder if the write of such a thread does the same thing at their school? Someone asks a question and gets an answer, but do you ask it again so the teacher can tell it you differently? Do you have to have a different text book that the other kids? When you dad told your brother the family wasn't getting a dog, did you still ask again because you didn't think that answer applied to you too?

The 100's of threads already here asking "Is {launguage} hard to learn?" already have tons of good responses. By feeling that you need a custom written answer just for you, you are missing out on hundreds of good responses to those other threads. It also tells everyone here that you're too lazy to go read the other threads. Or it tells those people that their answers weren't good enough for you. Or that you think we somehow 'get you' and your special education and learning needs. That although we told Bob that we don't know him from Adam and therefore don't know if it will be easy for him - for some reason your email can somehow let us see the inner you, and therefore we *can* let you know it will be tough.

So here's my advice: Get over yourself. You're one of a 50-200 new students in your course, which is one of 10,000 schools in the country. Last year several thousand students just like you graduated. This year a couple thousand more will enter the work force. Next year another few thousand are going to take the industry by storm. How many new jobs do you think open each year in any given industry? Now do the math.

Yes its hard. Boo hoo. Stop going to parties. If it's hard then you have to apply yourself. Get a tutor. Talk with the teacher. Spend your time doing on-line tutorials to learn the same material in a different way. Pick up a couple more "Learn C# in 30 days" books and work the hell out of them cover to cover. Not only are you competing against your class mates, and all the other students in the other 49 states, but you are competing against a world of outsourcers that don't have a mall down the street to go hang out at. There are many people in crappy parts of the world that do NOTHING but learn this stuff because they see it as a way out of their poverty and into a better country and better life. If you aren't as hungry as them, you're fraked.


If you're one of this generations precious snowflakes that needs their ego protected and everything explained special just for him, this isn't the career field for you. The deadlines are tight, the pressure is high, you are expected to be self managing, nobody will take you buy the hand. When you screw up you will get your ass chewed. When you succeed you will get your paycheck not a parade, because you get paid to do your job correctly so you haven't really done anything amazing. As a rookie right out of school you are treated as 'fresh meat'. There will be senior coders with more seniority than you have years alive. So you will get all the crap work they don't want to do. You will have to prove yourself and work your way up the ladder. Its called 'paying your dues' and everyone does it.

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 20 February 2013 - 07:38 AM

[nephtyhephty]

tlhIn`toq, on 20 February 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

nephtyhephty, on 19 February 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

I am sure you get a lot of these threads, but I would love some feedback from you guys.

As the self-designated blunt frank grown-up truth teller around here I'll tell you now that you won't like what I have to say, even if it what you need to hear. So if you aren't prepared for adult-to-adult conversation, don't open the spoiler below.

Spoiler

Yes, we do get a lot of these threads. And every time I see someone that feels those threads don't apply to them it makes me think those are the people that are going to be a huge pain in the ass for some unsuspecting employer. This is the person that thinks he's precious, special unique little rookie that has to have everything worded specifically for them. If he eventually finds work in this industry the mass email to the team won't be right for him, because he'll have to rephrase all the same questions and have all the answers custom tailored to him.

It also makes me wonder if the write of such a thread does the same thing at their school? Someone asks a question and gets an answer, but do you ask it again so the teacher can tell it you differently? Do you have to have a different text book that the other kids? When you dad told your brother the family wasn't getting a dog, did you still ask again because you didn't think that answer applied to you too?

The 100's of threads already here asking "Is {launguage} hard to learn?" already have tons of good responses. By feeling that you need a custom written answer just for you, you are missing out on hundreds of good responses to those other threads. It also tells everyone here that you're too lazy to go read the other threads. Or it tells those people that their answers weren't good enough for you. Or that you think we somehow 'get you' and your special education and learning needs. That although we told Bob that we don't know him from Adam and therefore don't know if it will be easy for him - for some reason your email can somehow let us see the inner you, and therefore we *can* let you know it will be tough.

So here's my advice: Get over yourself. You're one of a 50-200 new students in your course, which is one of 10,000 schools in the country. Last year several thousand students just like you graduated. This year a couple thousand more will enter the work force. Next year another few thousand are going to take the industry by storm. How many new jobs do you think open each year in any given industry? Now do the math.

Yes its hard. Boo hoo. Stop going to parties. If it's hard then you have to apply yourself. Get a tutor. Talk with the teacher. Spend your time doing on-line tutorials to learn the same material in a different way. Pick up a couple more "Learn C# in 30 days" books and work the hell out of them cover to cover. Not only are you competing against your class mates, and all the other students in the other 49 states, but you are competing against a world of outsourcers that don't have a mall down the street to go hang out at. There are many people in crappy parts of the world that do NOTHING but learn this stuff because they see it as a way out of their poverty and into a better country and better life. If you aren't as hungry as them, you're fraked.


If you're one of this generations precious snowflakes that needs their ego protected and everything explained special just for him, this isn't the career field for you. The deadlines are tight, the pressure is high, you are expected to be self managing, nobody will take you buy the hand. When you screw up you will get your ass chewed. When you succeed you will get your paycheck not a parade, because you get paid to do your job correctly so you haven't really done anything amazing. As a rookie right out of school you are treated as 'fresh meat'. There will be senior coders with more seniority than you have years alive. So you will get all the crap work they don't want to do. You will have to prove yourself and work your way up the ladder. Its called 'paying your dues' and everyone does it.

Wow, your response really means a lot to me. And in a very positive way. Thats exactly what I did, I ordered a learn C++ in 24 hours book today, and right as I came home I studied for 4 hours straight. Not just to stare at a screen so I can "say" I studied, but because I want to learn programming, and I have tons of fun learning it. Even though I can't understand things as fast as others, I have to work harder, sure, but it's all worth it. Thank you for your response once again as it has inspired me. Much love <3

[jjl]

When you first enter programming for the first time, I would not spend too much time try to understand every little detail of the language, that expertise will come in time. Focus on the basic, and don't worry to much about the underlying mechanisms - that's why a standard exists. The beginning classes always seem that hardest, ironically, but once you build a foundation, everything else will come more naturally. Then once you start taking more advanced programming and hardware classes, the underlying mechanisms of the language will begin to make sense.

To be short and sweet, don't be too hard on yourself. Yes this shit is hard, but like a lot of other shit, it takes practice and time.

[nephtyhephty]

jjl, on 20 February 2013 - 10:57 PM, said:

When you first enter programming for the first time, I would not spend too much time try to understand every little detail of the language, that expertise will come in time. Focus on the basic, and don't worry to much about the underlying mechanisms - that's why a standard exists. The beginning classes always seem that hardest, ironically, but once you build a foundation, everything else will come more naturally. Then once you start taking more advanced programming and hardware classes, the underlying mechanisms of the language will begin to make sense.

To be short and sweet, don't be too hard on yourself. Yes this shit is hard, but like a lot of other shit, it takes practice and time.

Ok thanks. But the thing is I have a project due where I am to make a stack and queue using doubly linked list. What we do in class is learn how linked list works with all the arrows and what now. Such as this doubly linked list eg:
null ↹[ &[data] &] ↹ [ &[data] &] ↹ [ &[data] &]↹ null. But the hard party is coding it, which we don't learn much in class, and I can't really study until my C++ book arrives.

[tlhIn`toq]

[cfoley]

What's wrong with googling for tutorial c++ doubly linked list?

There is an enormous amount of tutorials for things like that. At least some of them will be of high quality and will be able to help you translate the diagram to code.

[ollyMiner]

nephtyhephty, on 19 February 2013 - 06:32 PM, said:

I am sure you get a lot of these threads, but I would love some feedback from you guys. Ok, so I love programming. I honestly think its very fun because you can be so open minded and independent with what you want to do when you program. But the thing that worries me the most is, I'm a freshman in College trying to learn C++, and honestly, as much fun i think programming is, it is also very hard for me. My first semester I learned C, now (Second sem.) we are programming in C++, while studying from the book which is in Java.

I want to know, is programming really this hard for everyone? I am willing to work really hard, but that "Programming isn't for everyone" quote scares me />. The trouble I have is learning complicated syntax. Is it like this for every newcomer to programming?

In truth at first i really struggled two but if you really enjoy it then i am sure that you would do fine. but the one thing you should remember is to think like a programmer AKA break all you problems down into smaller ones and keep doing that till there can't be broken down any more and if you do that then you should do fine.