So long 4th Amendment

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#1 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:28 PM

With all the talk these days about civil rights (the SCOTUS heard arguments just yesterday for whether the Voting Rights Act ought to be revisited), gun rights and just within our fair forum, a discussion of the Copyright Alert System...the rights Americans are entitled to as a veritable birthright of our citizenship have been big news this year.

So, living as I do in the southeastern U.S., I have to admit that I was unaware and therefore unprepared to witness the content of a video I ran across today:



I know some of you live in areas where this is apparently occurring so I wanted to know...what the fucking fuck is this shit?! I know we don't do that kind of thing where I live but is this really a thing in the (presumably) southwest? One of the scenes identifies the checkpoint as being inside the U.S., dozens of miles from the border.

Have any of you folks run across this and if so...what the hell? What did you do? Did you even know they can't do this kind of thing legally?

This post has been edited by Craig328: 28 February 2013 - 02:28 PM


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#2 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:48 PM

If these videos show me anything, it is that there is no authorization or power from these agents, & it certainly seems safe to stay in the vehicle.

Jesus Christ America....
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#3 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

Immigration checkpoints. All over the southwest. I remember when I was younger in the truck with my dad and first learning to drive tractor trailer. It infuriated me beyond belief.
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#4 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 02:57 PM

I'm not going to lie - that video made me laugh a little.
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#5 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:09 PM

A video like this is especially telling at a time when there are fair chunks of people going about suggesting that some constitutional rights are okay to be curtailed or jettisoned altogether and they say it because they have an inherent trust that the government won't abuse their already considerable powers. Well, here's a video whose content is only distinguishable from what you could have shot in 1930's Germany by that the images are in color and that our internal security forces aren't saying "papiere bitte".

I have to further admit that I was shocked that even when presented with a citizen asking the two magic questions ("Am I being detained?" and "Am I free to go?") and when the reaction of the officer makes it clear they know what they're SUPPOSED to do in response (let the person go on their way) they STILL persisted in their insistence that the person be forced to answer their questions, submit to a search and so on. Even when they KNEW they were in the wrong, they still went on. What's worse still is that, I suspect, had the cameras not been so plainly evident and rolling tape that some of those stops would have resulted in something other than the officer eventually relenting and allowing the people to go about their business. That's my suspicion anyway.

The amazing one (to me) was when the driver pulled up to the checkpoint and he asked the officer "you an American citizen" and "do you have ID" and how obviously uncomfortable the officer was to respond.

I'm just kind of disgusted that even when the people manning the checkpoints know they have no right to be doing what they're doing, the entire agency they work for doesn't give a damn and goes and does it anyway and that it's up to individuals to insist they not be bullied or harassed...because the government won't stop themselves from doing so.
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#6 Apokio  Icon User is online

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:11 PM

I have friends that drive down Laredo way and about 40 miles from the border is one of these checkpoints on IH35. Apparently, all you have to do is say you are US citizen and they let you go. They do stop you long enough to have a drug dog sniff around the vehicle and that can be cause for further investigation. Most people who live down that way or travel there often will exit the interstate and take other roads around the checkpoint.
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#7 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:16 PM

*
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So I just got to the part where one of the officers comments on the "your hand is shaking".

This is the one thing I can't stand the most when I'm being grilled by cops.

So first back story...

I have been tackled, beaten, physically assaulted by officers on numerous occasions. In some instances because I'm a cocky son of a bitch while talking to cops, in others while minding my own business and walking down the street.

As a child my father wasn't what you'd call an upstanding proper citizen. He committed several crimes in his time. For this reason the cops watched him quite a bit... and would cross the line. I've seen cops break into my house with out warrant, and even separate me from my parents for long periods of time, and physically assault my father... often with out warrant (and yes my father used that in court to his benefit).

I am not alone in this, and most of my friends have dealt with similar issues. Spending time on the wrong side of the rail-road tracks you and police don't exactly get along.

My total experiences with police is that of to anticipate a threat to my health. I understand cops are on edge due to their job, due to their experiences in the places they may find me. The vice versa also exists.




So often while cops have me pulled over or the sort I get asked.

"So Mr. Smith, if you have nothing to hide, why are you shaking?"

Maybe because I'm afraid you'll shove your foot in the back of my neck. Or maybe pull that gun out and point it at me (or at this current moment your partner has his pointed at me). That all my experiences up to now have taught me that cops will beat me senseless with little to no repercussion. Actually that if I squirm or attempt to block your assault in any way I'll spend the week in jail for "resisting arrest" or worse "assault on an officer" until I can get in front of a judge and explain the situation... which I'll be let off for and no charges held against me... but you know I was still beaten and spent a couple days in jail for what? For...

Well lets review some of the things cops have said to me.

"Why were you coming out of that neighbourhood?"
"I was visiting old friends of mine for dinner."
"Well maybe you should get friends in nicer neighbourhoods."

"Well it says here you're license has been suspended for 2 years, and that your friend there has a warrant out for his arrest."
"Did you also notice that the dates for both of those are for men born in 1958, one of whom is dead?" (our fathers)

::at gas pump in gas station filling my tank, officer pulls up behind me not at a pump, this cop had been following me for several miles::
"Hi sir, why have you been following me?"
"What?"
"Why have you been following me?"
"I'm going to need you to put your hands on the hood, you're under arrest."
"Ummm... Ian, call dad... what for officer?"
"Resisting arrest."
::I proceeded to get very upset, to which he attempted to wrestle me, I broke free and continued arguing, he called for 6 cops for backup, I was again attempted to be wrestled to the ground and kicked, I broke free and continued to argue until my father calmed me down by making me laugh. The cops asked if they could drug test me as they think I'm on PCP, to which my dad said, "you'll have to ask him, he's an adult, it's not my say".::
There reason for following me... I had a new TV in my back seat. He had followed me from the Wal-Mart where I bought it. He thought maybe I stole it... cause you know I just walked right up into wal-mart and walked out with a 36" CRT TV under my arm... with out paying.


So when a cop asks me why I'm shaking... I just wanna fucking punch him in the face for being such a fucking retard.




tldr;

Cops get a benefit of the doubt because they work in territories where their lives may be at threat (supposedly)... working in neighbourhoods where people carry weapons, sell drugs, etc.

But cops get to leave at the end of the day. Those people... they live there.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 28 February 2013 - 03:34 PM

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#8 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

i can't see the video at work, but i think i get the gist of it. i've seen my dad harassed by border patrol on family vacations, i've been held by the cops for 3 hours in a gas station parking because they were 'looking for a hispanic in a honda'. nothing really surprises me with this stuff.
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#9 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 03:28 PM

View PostApokio, on 28 February 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I have friends that drive down Laredo way and about 40 miles from the border is one of these checkpoints on IH35. Apparently, all you have to do is say you are US citizen and they let you go. They do stop you long enough to have a drug dog sniff around the vehicle and that can be cause for further investigation. Most people who live down that way or travel there often will exit the interstate and take other roads around the checkpoint.


You see though, that right there is a major issue for me. What's the point of a government entity setting up a constitutionally illegal checkpoint whose staffers KNOW they have to let you go on your way IF you're fortunate enough to know the 2 sooper seekrit questions to ask, to purportedly check for illegal immigrants...when the very people they're supposedly looking for have the option to go around this idiocy in the first place? I mean, for crissake, if that's the case then it does absolutely nothing beneficial whatsoever and catches only the terminally stupid.

What's more, consider that tomorrow is Sequester Day. How much do you think it costs the Border Patrol to build, maintain and staff these checkpoints they shouldn't even have in the first place? More taxes for crap like this? I don't think so. I swear, if we could just cut out the graft, corruption, fraud and ridiculous shit the government spends money on, we'd have a budget surplus that'd make Midas blush down to his balls.
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#10 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:01 PM

As long as were on the topic of our rights being taken away with little to no benefit, when is the last time that a terrorist was actually captured by TSA? I mean, sure I don't mind showing my junk to some random stranger, but it really sends a chill up my spine when I read these stories about old women & young women, sometimes in wheelchairs being harassed simply because some idiot flew a plane full of people into a building.
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#11 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:05 PM

I should also point out about these checkpoints.

They don't only serve as operations for border patrol. But also operate as drug sniffing locations as well. They usually are crawling with drug dogs, and they walk the dogs up and down the line of cars as people are waiting to answer this question.

I don't have proof, but some believe that they operate mainly for this purpose. I bet it's more of a two birds one unconstitutional stone scenario.
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#12 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:07 PM

this is one of those times where i appreciate craig's conservative leanings. when most conservatives mean "don't spend money in wasteful ways" what they really mean is "don't spend money in wasteful ways that i agree with but keep spending it on all the stuff i like". craig seems to at least be pretty consistent in his desire to cut back on waste.
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#13 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

View Postlordofduct, on 28 February 2013 - 06:05 PM, said:

I should also point out about these checkpoints.

They don't only serve as operations for border patrol. But also operate as drug sniffing locations as well. They usually are crawling with drug dogs, and they walk the dogs up and down the line of cars as people are waiting to answer this question.

I don't have proof, but some believe that they operate mainly for this purpose. I bet it's more of a two birds one unconstitutional stone scenario.


See, here's the thing: while I may not agree with all the laws we have on the books, they ARE the laws and, as such, we as a society need to abide by them in order for things to run smoothly. We as a society have a means for changing the laws if we find we need one or if we find one to be particularly onerous. That assumes that the apparatus we have in place (our government) is answerable to "we the people". Increasingly, I believe our government is separating itself from the governed...and when that happens, historically, you have despotism followed by revolt.

I mention all that because more than anything else, I like fair play. As long as everyone plays by the agreed upon rules then I'm usually cool. If the government wants to run drug sniffing dogs past my motor vehicle, feel free. Stop me to do so though using some ridiculous pretense like smuggling illegals? Go fuck yourself. You want Fido to sniff around my car...teach the bitch to run 65 miles per hour and then have at it cause that's around how fast I plan to be going.

View Postsupersloth, on 28 February 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

this is one of those times where i appreciate craig's conservative leanings. when most conservatives mean "don't spend money in wasteful ways" what they really mean is "don't spend money in wasteful ways that i agree with but keep spending it on all the stuff i like". craig seems to at least be pretty consistent in his desire to cut back on waste.


Which is why I don't like to be called a conservative. That label suggests positions on social issues which I not only tend not to agree with but tend to think the government has no business involving itself with in the first place. Inasmuch as the sequester thing goes, a part of me thinks it could turn out to be a good thing. When negotiations over the fiscal cliff produced this shitfest idea just a few months ago I actually kind of thought at the time we'd end up here where those idiots proved they literally cannot see more than a week past the present. It's no wonder our financial house is an epic disaster.

It turns out now there's talk of paring down conference spending and travel. The Congress can't seem to agree to act on that shit and the president isn't willing to...but this sequester idea has done what none of those tards seemed to have the political will to do: take spending the public's money seriously.

If this thing forces the bureaucracy to cut down on waste and frivolous shit even a little, it'll be a good thing.

This post has been edited by Craig328: 28 February 2013 - 04:31 PM

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#14 CharlieMay  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

View Postlordofduct, on 28 February 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Actually that if I squirm or attempt to block your assault in any way I'll spend the week in jail for "resisting arrest"

I couldn't agree more. I actually was friends with the Police Chief back about 15 years ago and we were on the subject of some episode of Cops and the police where screaming stop resisting. (can't remember exactly) but the gist of the conversation went along the lines as:

Police Chief: Hell, it's easy to get anyone for resisting arrest. You just have an officer begin trying to handcuff the perp and you drop down and apply pressure to his face with your knee. Their first instinct is to pull their hand up to try to remove the knee at which point they are resisting arrest against the officer trying to cuff them.

I must say it was a shocking realization.
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#15 creativecoding  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:42 PM

Or, you know... Arrest them, and then say they were resisting arrest. Nobody bats an eyelash. What's the dude gonna do? Call the police? I wish I was joking.
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