So long 4th Amendment

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90 Replies - 4730 Views - Last Post: 07 March 2013 - 11:25 PM

#46 WolfCoder  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:50 PM

I didn't even watch the video, I just like reading all of you arguing against each other.
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#47 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 04:23 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 02 March 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

If I misunderstand your position, I'm sorry. Please clarify it. What I see you arguing looks a lot like "what the cops in that video did is okay, because Mexicans".
I believe that the cops in that video do is unconscionable, and migrant laborers do not pose any particular threat to anyone: this is why I think we disagree. Where am I wrong?


This is going on way too long, and you seem obsessed with Mexicans for some reason. :) My position has nothing to do with Mexicans.

My position is this: It's OK to ask those entering the country through border crossings and even inspection stations further into the country tough questions which they, in the case of American citizens, may not legally obligated to answer. Border agents are also trained to to detect lies. I also find it acceptable to search people and vehicles where suspicion is established based on what seem to be misleading answers to agents questions. This is a gray area, of course, and it always has been, but it is certainly much better than searching every car or allowing everyone to pass into the country freely, as there are too many national security risks, as well as the possibility of drug smuggling, human trafficking, etc. So you get asked a few questions at the border. The sky isn't going to fall and you're not losing any rights. What's wrong with telling the border guard you are a citizen? Border guards are not mind readers, and their job is keep those not legally authorized to be in the country out of it. That's the law. No one is above it. Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that. These are generally the same kind of morons you see running all over the south acting like the government is some giant "tyrannical" entity, always out to get them and strip them of every right they have, while simultaneously demanding that the government enforce current immigration laws or even build electrified fences on the border. They're complete idiots. Come into the country. Say hello to the guard. Take 15 seconds to tell them that you are a returning citizen and that you're glad to be back, then be on your way, OR stay silent or uncooperative, as is you right, then face tough questions. The choice is yours.
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#48 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

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even inspection stations further into the country...

...which means it's no longer border control, because it's not the border. And the posture of the personnel is purposely misleading. They have no actual authority to ask the questions (or I guess it's more accurate to say they have no authority to expect an answer), so they're going to be stern and intimidating and act like you can be detained for not cooperating. Agents who are supposedly there to enforce the law end up either obscuring or outright breaking it. Law enforcement can't break laws to enforce the law. Surely you're not advocating that, right?

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These are generally the same kind of morons you see running all over the south acting like the government is some giant "tyrannical" entity, always out to get them and strip them of every right they have, while simultaneously demanding that the government enforce current immigration laws or even build electrified fences on the border. They're complete idiots.


I don't think we watched the same video then. Because I didn't notice a single redneck in one of these stops. The "lock down the borders and shoot Mexicans on sight" border-control types would generally gladly answer that questions "Fuck yeah I'm a 'merican." Christian, racist, Republican southerners generally don't learn much about laws (other than gun laws, when you can and can't shoot someone, which counties are dry and when the state's cutoff for beer and liquor sales is), so they're certainly not represented by the most entertaining in that video. I'd go so far as to say several of those guys were downright liberal.

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Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that.


Really dude? Again? Aren't we above that tactic in here? Or are you really just that self-righteous? Some of the people I witnessed in that video (and some of the others it led me to afterwards) sounded pretty intelligent, and were way more educated about the law than most of us (I sure as hell couldn't pop off specific statutes regarding the legality of their actions - I don't remember if that was this video or another). How about "only an idiot would refuse to let agents search his/her vehicle" or "only an idiot would refuse to let a cop into their house" or "only an idiot would resist waking up his sleeping children in the backseat of a car to prove to a bored Sheriff's deputy that they were buckled up under their blankets?" (Yeah, I'm still bitter about that bullshit). Fuck all of that. I agree with the need for law enforcement, but I will also refuse to be harassed by them. Sure, I would most likely just say "Yeah I'm a citizen" at that checkpoint. But what if they don't believe me and then push me to prove it? What if they take it another step farther? Or what if I don't feel like fucking with it, exercise my right to refuse to answer, and they act like I'm not allowed to do that? Our founding fathers were really paranoid about government. It's kind of the tone with which they wrote the constitution. Limitations are placed on the actions that law enforcement and military can take against citizens of our nation because there's kind of a historical issue with that.

As a parent, sometimes you have to stand your ground against your kids on principal, because while a certain behavior may not be a problem in and of itself, it is indicative of a pattern of behavior that is not acceptable. Government action is no different, except that our authority over the government has been abstracted away and it has a lot of firepower with which to exert its will.
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#49 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

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This is going on way too long, and you seem obsessed with Mexicans for some reason. My position has nothing to do with Mexicans.


Then who do you find sneaking across the border near Arizona? Eskimos? Okay, to be precise I should say "Mexicans, Costa Ricans, Guatemalans, and Hondurans primarily" but I think that's maybe chopping things too fine. You're certainly justifying this behavior based on some supposed need to stop people coming across the border, and the people you're talking about are basically folks from Central America.

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It's OK to ask those entering the country through border crossings and even inspection stations further into the country tough questions which they, in the case of American citizens, may not legally obligated to answer


How far into this country does this extend? And who is allowed to do this questioning? Many people who take basically this position want this to be "anywhere in this country" and "anyone with a badge, plus also postal carriers and maybe garbagemen if we think we can get away with that one". Do you agree with them? If not, on what basis, and how do you propose stopping the people who basically agree with you from turning this country into a literal police state?

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Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that.


Only an idiot would enter into a legal investigation which could easily lead to their being charged with any number of offenses or subjected to the whims of law enforcement without understanding the terms of the investigation, and having a lawyer present. If you ask any lawyer, they will tell you the same: don't talk to the cops unless you have a lawyer with you.

I assume you've read lordofduct's posts on this: his experiences are not at all unique or implausible.

I'm not sure you're understanding why this question isn't simple at all, but I'm not sure you're going to understand it. If you don't get a cold chill when you hear the phrase "Ausweise, bitte!" then you're in desperate need of a review of 20th century history.

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Come into the country. Say hello to the guard. Take 15 seconds to tell them that you are a returning citizen and that you're glad to be back, then be on your way, OR stay silent or uncooperative, as is you right, then face tough questions. The choice is yours.


You're completely confused about what's going on here. These people are in the country. They are driving from point A to point B, and their trajectory does not include any point not part of the continental US. Please try to keep up.


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Border agents are also trained to to detect lies


Oh, really? Why does nobody offer this training to the rest of the world? Sounds like it would be very useful to people in all sorts of work.
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#50 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:48 AM

View Postfarrell2k, on 02 March 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

snip...

...Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that. These are generally the same kind of morons you see running all over the south acting like the government is some giant "tyrannical" entity, always out to get them and strip them of every right they have, while simultaneously demanding that the government enforce current immigration laws or even build electrified fences on the border....

...snip


See now you're generalizing and making assumptions. You're being a hypocrite, just like the hypocrites you're painting.

Obviously they aren't like that. None of us are? Or are you saying I, jon, hannibal, etc, are a gun waving, build an electric fence, government is a tyrant, don't ask me questions at border patrol, hypocrite?

No I don't think you're saying that. Of course you're not. You made a point to separate us from that group in your describing them.

So are you saying the people in the video were that then? Cause I'd like some evidence. None of them seemed that way to me.

SO... who are these people, these strawmen, that you keep painting and calling idiots. Cause all it does it make it sound like you're passively calling anyone who stands up for their rights as a US citizen is an idiot.

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Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that.


Yep, that's what you did. You called us all idiots.
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#51 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:54 AM

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Border agents are also trained to detect lies


I forgot about that one. A lot of the guys who work for <insert federal agency where you carry a sidearm and possibly a carbine> are prior service military; they get out, but still want to be high-speed. They're generally the ones who couldn't have made it through college for free, and are misguidedly patriotic enough to believe that they're still saving the world (because they believed we were saving the world in Iraq and Afghanistan), which serves to keep them out of Blackwater/Triple Canopy/KBR/etc. And they are absolutely not trained to detect lies, beyond "if they look down and left, and fidget, and, well, look like they're lying," but watch a few episodes of the Mentalist and you're probably a step up from them. You're confusing them with detectives maybe.

EDIT: Several of the guys I served with (one who was in Iraq with me twice) went to work for border patrol after the Marine Corps. I love them like brothers and would (and have) trust(ed) them with my life, but the one especially is dumber than a box of rocks.

This post has been edited by h4nnib4l: 02 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

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#52 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

What officers are taught to detect as lies is actually them detecting if you're uncomfortable.

They tend to leave out the critical part that most people are uncomfortable in the presence of a person holding a firearm. Especially a firearm they have reasonable ability to shoot them down with if they don't obey (they don't have the right to necessarily, but they have ways to get around that).

Hence the, "So Mr. Smith, if you have nothing to hide, why are you shaking?"

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 02 March 2013 - 08:59 AM

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#53 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:06 AM

Here's the other thing. So they detect if I'm lying. What then?

Now we're getting into the 5th amendment.

This is like what a few of the border patrol said in that video, "if you don't have anything to hide, what's the problem?"

What if I DO have something to hide? I'm allowed to. I'm allowed to NOT self incriminate myself. I'm allowed to have something illegal, and hide it, and not be coerced into uncovering it. The government has to use due process through legal avenues to uncover my crimes.

It's just that way. So fuck you.




You might ask, what am I hiding?

I could be a drug trafficker driving a bible of acid from California to Florida.

I could have a warrant out for my arrest.

I might not have insurance on my car.

I might being trafficking cartons of cigarettes from Carolina to California (hey some people do it).

I might be carrying my porno and butt-plug collection (which isn't illegal) and I find it rather embarassing.


But because I trembled during my answering of an illegal question. I get detained at "zone 2" and my privacy is further uncovered. Possibly illegal activity uncovered. And I'm arrested.

But the evidence was gathered illegally.

Here's the thing, though you might think, oh those people needed to get caught. Sorry, that's not the way it works in the US. That's why there are murderers who get off on their crime because some cop illegally gathered evidence.

Now you might say, why would we have this law? Why would we allow murderers and criminals have loop holes.

Well they're there so the innocent don't get charged. So the innocent can't have a cop dupe evidence on them. It's designed with hopes that yes a couple criminals may slip through, and we have to work harder to catch them. But hopefully we don't lock up innocents for crimes they didn't commit. Because we know that criminals are just people, and that law officials are just criminals. We know that law officials are capable of being criminals!

And yes it happens. I have family and friends who have sat in prison for things they didn't do. Yeah yeah, they all say that. But still...

fuck you

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 02 March 2013 - 09:17 AM

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#54 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 09:52 AM

View Postlordofduct, on 02 March 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

View Postfarrell2k, on 02 March 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

snip...

...Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that. These are generally the same kind of morons you see running all over the south acting like the government is some giant "tyrannical" entity, always out to get them and strip them of every right they have, while simultaneously demanding that the government enforce current immigration laws or even build electrified fences on the border....

...snip


See now you're generalizing and making assumptions. You're being a hypocrite, just like the hypocrites you're painting.

Obviously they aren't like that. None of us are? Or are you saying I, jon, hannibal, etc, are a gun waving, build an electric fence, government is a tyrant, don't ask me questions at border patrol, hypocrite?

No I don't think you're saying that. Of course you're not. You made a point to separate us from that group in your describing them.

So are you saying the people in the video were that then? Cause I'd like some evidence. None of them seemed that way to me.

SO... who are these people, these strawmen, that you keep painting and calling idiots. Cause all it does it make it sound like you're passively calling anyone who stands up for their rights as a US citizen is an idiot.

Quote

Only an idiot would refuse to answer a simple question like that.


Yep, that's what you did. You called us all idiots.


Not necessarily. From interacting with many of you from other posts, I find you to be intelligent and articulate, but if you enter the country with no paperwork or passport(try that at an airport), then get unnecessarily indignant about being asked a few simple questions, you are a complete idiot. You're not being asked for a visa or a passport like with other methods of travel. You're asked a few simple questions - "Are you a citizen?" "Do you have any contraband, etc?". If you are so much of a douche bag that you cannot just say "yes I am a citizen, and no I don't have any fruit" and be on your way, then you're a complete retard, plain and simple. The country has the right to protect its borders from terrorism, drug trafficking, human trafficking, etc. If you don't like it, fly in and out of the country and show your passport and have yourself patted down and your baggage scanned every time.


Kiparsky - settle down. Stop trying to paint me as some big race monger because you'd made the connection between south and Mexicans and border in your head.
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#55 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:07 AM

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If you are so much of a douche bag that you cannot just say "yes I am a citizen, and no I don't have any fruit" and be on your way, then you're a complete retard, plain and simple.


You keep doing it. So far, you've said that anybody who disagrees with you on this is:

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an idiot

Quote

(a) douche bag

Quote

a complete retard


I could go back more pages, or to other threads for other issues, and dig up more, but you get the drift.

So what the fuck is your problem?

EDIT: Oh, and you seem utterly incapable of grasping the fact that WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FUCKING BORDER OR ANY OTHER ENTRY POINT TO THE MOTHERFUCKING COUNTRY. And you call everyone else dumb...

This post has been edited by h4nnib4l: 02 March 2013 - 10:08 AM

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#56 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:33 AM

View Posth4nnib4l, on 02 March 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

You keep doing it. So far, you've said that anybody who disagrees with you on this is:

Quote

an idiot

Quote

(a) douche bag

Quote

a complete retard


No. Not anyone who disagrees with me. Anyone who:

"Is so much of a douche bag that you cannot just say "yes I am a citizen, and no I don't have any fruit" and be on your way, then you're a complete retard, plain and simple."

View Posth4nnib4l, on 02 March 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

So what the fuck is your problem?

EDIT: Oh, and you seem utterly incapable of grasping the fact that WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE FUCKING BORDER OR ANY OTHER ENTRY POINT TO THE MOTHERFUCKING COUNTRY. And you call everyone else dumb...


My problem? Your ignorance of the 4th amendment. Warrant-less searches are allowed at border crossings, and within reasonable distances of the border. You have zero protection from warrant-less search and seizures there. But that's not even what's happening. These people are just being asked questions, and they're reacting as if the border control agents are somehow breaking the law, when they are not.

Yeah, lordofduct and I have already covered secondary border checkpoints, like the ones in the video that could be 20 or 30 miles from the main border crossing.

This post has been edited by farrell2k: 02 March 2013 - 10:34 AM

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#57 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:42 AM

EDIT: Never mind, you're a waste of my time. Enjoy your self-righteousness.

This post has been edited by h4nnib4l: 02 March 2013 - 10:44 AM

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#58 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 10:51 AM

What's wrong? Did you just realize that you and everyone else here and the people in the video are crying about 4th amendment rights you and they do not actually have?

Be smart and know your rights.

This post has been edited by farrell2k: 02 March 2013 - 10:51 AM

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#59 Python_4_President  Icon User is offline

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:03 PM

Well, farrel... Make sure you don't have any pirated music on your Ipod when traveling, because... they'll search that, too., but not just AT the border.. See the surprisingly large orange "border" around the USA? That is where your constitutional rights end... apparently..

Posted Image

This post has been edited by Python_4_President: 02 March 2013 - 12:04 PM

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#60 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: So long 4th Amendment

Posted 02 March 2013 - 12:15 PM

I'm done. The man has programming chops, but not a lick of sense.
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