When to move on

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28 Replies - 3050 Views - Last Post: 12 May 2013 - 06:03 AM

#16 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:45 AM

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Your goal at work should be to do the least amount of work humanly possible for the most amount of money


Doing the least amount of work possible is a good goal for a programmer. That's why we use computers instead of sorting bits of paper by hand.

However, there's something a little less than appealing about the way you put this, and I can see why baavgai reacts the way he does - I had the same revulsion. I don't hire people to write programs, but if I were hiring I wouldn't want someone who prioritizes "doing the least they can get away with for the most money".

I'd be interested in getting someone who wanted to get the most done in the most efficient way possible, that would be okay. Or maybe the person who's interested in working on the most interesting problems possible, if I had problems that were interesting enough to keep them occupied. But if you come into an interview saying you want "the least amount of work humanly possible for the most amount of money" you'd better have a damned good punchline, or we're done right there.
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#17 Michael26  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

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It's the exact reason why senior developers don't work for junior pay. It's too much work for too little money.

If i understand you correctly, junior work is too much work?
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#18 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 02:11 PM

View PostMichael26, on 24 April 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:

If i understand you correctly, junior work is too much work?


I think he's saying junior pay is not enough pay - if you can get senior pay.
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#19 baavgai  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:27 PM

View Postfarrell2k, on 24 April 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

Well, that's because you're the guy buying programmers...


Not exactly. I'm the senior programmer who wants people who are actually enthusiastic about the craft. I want someone who actually enjoys the various tasks that need to be done, even when it's a fight. These are the people I want to work with.

I do NOT want the guy who entered IT because they heard there was money there and manage to be joylessly competent enough. I want the company to pay the enthusiast all they can. I want the plodding salary man to find another vocation.

I do understand your min/max point of salary. But that's really only a factor of the gig. You couldn't pay me enough to do many jobs. When I did contract work, I turned down some jobs even if the pay was good. You have to understand your own priorities.
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#20 farrell2k  Icon User is online

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

Therein lies the problem, guys. You as the buyer want the most for your money, while the guy you're hiring wants to sell the least amount of his time for the most money he can get. 99% of people will pour honey into your ear telling you telling you how hard they will work, how interested in this or that they are, etc, but in the end they're going to do what they perceive to be the minimum amount of work to get the job done. How many people in this thread are posting and reading this at work, when they could be giving 110% by doing something else for their employer? My point, exactly! Some will say things like "I get the job done then come here to learn blah blah blah". People are lazy, and everyone lies. It's human nature.
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#21 Atli  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

farrell2k said:

99% of people will pour honey into your ear telling you telling you how hard they will work, how interested in this or that they are, etc, but in the end they're going to do what they perceive to be the minimum amount of work to get the job done.

I guess it's that remaining 1% they are looking for then. Even if you get lied to and happen to hire one of the zombies, the quality of the work will no doubt reveal that sooner than later.

We all get the basics of how trading works, so the whole concept of workers trying to maximizing their pay and companies trying to minimize their costs is not lost on anybody. However, there is another factor in that equation for many workers out there (about 1% of them, apparently), besides the money and the time spent: our interest in the work. Of course we will try to get good wages as well, but with this added factor the highest paying job is not necessarily what we will end picking.

farrell2k said:

How many people in this thread are posting and reading this at work, when they could be giving 110% by doing something else for their employer?

There is a difference between being enthusiastic about the work and spending 110% of your time doing it. Everybody needs a break from work every now and then, even those of us who like what we are doing.
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#22 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:42 PM

View Postfarrell2k, on 24 April 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Therein lies the problem, guys. You as the buyer want the most for your money, while the guy you're hiring wants to sell the least amount of his time for the most money he can get.


You as the buyer want to meet your objectives, you as the seller want also to meet your objectives. The exact nature of those objectives is up to buyer and seller to determine.

In programming, some objectives might include "crank out the code", "change the world", "write clean and maintainable code", "reimagine the field of <foo>", "pass all security audits", "get away with it", and on and on.

Notice that either party can have those objectives, which startled me, since I though I was writing the company's possible goals, and was about to move on to the employee's, but I find I can stop there.
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#23 Lemur  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:31 PM

Perhaps I'm just the 22 year old single amateur dreamer stereotype, but I can't say that I agree with that mentality. I want to learn, to be challenged, and to do amazing things in my life time. Being stagnant in my career and my life is the most repulsive thing I can imagine. Too many people in my area are content with being lifers for that exact same reason, and never bother to do anything but what's absolutely necessary. To me, that's wrong.

If I'm hired to do a job, I will do it with all of my ability, not just what the boss thinks I can do. At home, I still read up on the latest tech, because I love to tweak with this stuff, and anything else that interests me. Passion comes before money for me, and always will.

I've had to work with jaded employees who thought a company owed them everything under the sun, and that things would never survive without them. Those people are absolutely toxic and need to be dealt with swiftly before they infect the other workers.

At this point, the only reason I consider moving on from my current job is that I've come pretty close to automating my job out of existence. People say only seniors should be able to do things of that level, but no one told me that so I did it anyways. I've documented every step of the way and pretty well ensured that anyone can pick up where I left off if they have basic networking knowledge.

When I work somewhere, I want to leave the company better than it was when I started there. The day when I stop believing that is the day I should retire before I become toxic to others.
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#24 farrell2k  Icon User is online

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Re: When to move on

Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

There will come a time when you realize that not only do you have fewer days ahead than you do behind, but that the things that motivated you in youth are not as important as they once were, especially when family enters the picture. I hope you realize that your time its the most valuable thing you have, and that your should maximize it by spending it with those must important to you, because one day you're going to wonder where it all went.

Move on when the time its right. Only you can decide that. I guess I am the only one here who wants to make more by working less. Strange.
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#25 SpikeSpiegel  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 25 April 2013 - 01:26 AM

View PostLemur, on 24 April 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Perhaps I'm just the 22 year old single amateur dreamer stereotype, but I can't say that I agree with that mentality. I want to learn, to be challenged, and to do amazing things in my life time. Being stagnant in my career and my life is the most repulsive thing I can imagine.


Because you're still young, you haven't realised that the 'jaded' people around you were once as you are now. They just got tired of constantly striving for all of these things.
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#26 baavgai  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 25 April 2013 - 03:36 AM

View Postfarrell2k, on 24 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

You as the buyer want the most for your money


Agreed. Both sides want to most return on investment.

View Postfarrell2k, on 24 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

the guy you're hiring wants to sell the least amount of his time for the most money he can get.


Not quite. Time is not the same as effort.

There are times you'll try avoid the crap you don't want to do; that's called work. There are times you'll be excited by getting the next milestone met. Strangely, that's also work. If you like what you're doing, you don't just stop because you've met some pay for effort metric; you get what you're doing done.

View Postfarrell2k, on 24 April 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

How many people in this thread are posting and reading this at work, when they could be giving 110% by doing something else for their employer?


Yep. But I'm at work two hours early right now ( I hate traffic. ) I'm actually debating reading this or finishing up some code that I had to stop working on yesterday. I really want to pick the code back up, but I'm getting stuff out of the way first. I'll probably start working on it early, though, because it's calling me. I don't get paid extra to do this; I want to. I'm also putting off some documentation, which I don't want to do. During the course of the day, when I need a break, I'll be posting to this board. This, too, is human nature.

I actually don't mind if people engage in their chosen distraction for a good portion of the day, as long as they can get the work done. That downtime IS part of work. However, if all I did was documentation, I'd be a crappy worker. If I didn't like programming, I'd be a bad programmer. It's not about money for effort; it's about money for passion. If you have no passion for it, you're just going through the motions and looking at the bottom line.
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#27 Apokio  Icon User is online

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Re: When to move on

Posted 25 April 2013 - 05:42 AM

Lemur, the only advice I have for you is to do what you love while you are young and don't leave anything behind. A time in your life will come where providing for your family/self is more important than being 100% happy in your job. I agree with both sides of the work:pay ratio. There is a middle ground and it depends on where someone is at in their life/career and how the feel about that ratio. There are many other factors that make a decision for the work:pay ratio that come into play.
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#28 Luckless  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 30 April 2013 - 08:00 AM

When Mondays start to suck. Monday is a pretty normal day and isn't so bad, it's the job.
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#29 Mallstrop  Icon User is offline

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Re: When to move on

Posted 12 May 2013 - 06:03 AM

When my mistakes start catching up with me :whistling:
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