Human Laziness Evolving?

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#1 aczwicker  Icon User is offline

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Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

This is a topic that has bothered me for quite some time. Real Programmers VS Code "Snippers" and "Googlers"

Reading over many of the newer posts over the last few months there seem to be an increasing number of people asking for help with exams and homework. Has it always been like this??

A good quote to describe this is one by Daniel Tosh: (basically sums up my thoughts):
"Don't you love it when people in school are like, "I'm a bad test taker"? ...You mean, you're stupid.
Oh, you struggle with that part where we find out what you know? .....Oh. No, no, I can totally relate.
See, because I'm a brilliant painter...... minus my God-awful brushstrokes.
Oh, how the masterpiece is crystal up here[points to head], but once paint hits canvas, I develop Parkinson's.
I assume you do your best work in the morning. Probably gets abstract by noon."
-Daniel Tosh

Anyway, back to the subject. Since the dawn of the internet age, code resources are becoming more and more easily available via the web. Instead of studying and committing code syntax to memory, they just "google" it and then to the usual "copy" and "paste", a little editing here and there until the errors go away and done!

This REALLY bothers me when someone is taking an exam. A programming exam is to test WHAT YOU KNOW, not what your friends know, and not what google knows. I can understand the use of MSDN or a programming book on exams, but not asking someone to check your half-ass fake code that you wrote to pretend you're trying just to get someone to give you the "correct" answer that you inevitably copy and paste into your program and then call it your own.

I understand being smart and lazy (with building a personal code library and reusing code), but to what extend is using online code and calling the end program their own a good thing?

How many authentic programmers are really out there when 90% of the online programming community (outside of D.I.C) claim to be programmers because they simply edit a line of code of someones project that they found online, but cant even build a 4 function calculator without the help of google or an actual programmer?

I am not bashing on the people that look up the MSDN or other programming reference to understand the code, I am talking about the authors of what we might call "Frankencode"

Please post your thoughts, I look forward to hearing what the programming community's thoughts are on this subject!

I enjoy being a part of D.I.C because it possible to have an intellectual conversation with members that don't use childish texting speech.

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Replies To: Human Laziness Evolving?

#2 Nykc  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

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I work with some pretty great minds - some of the best developers in the country. Did you know that I caught a few of them using "Google" and "Stack Overflow"

They must be a special kind of stupid huh!!!!

Real developers never re-use code either :whistling:
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#3 creativecoding  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:50 PM

Who cares if they make their living off other people's code? If it works, it works. If it interferes with your work, that's your problem (aka, complain to your boss, not some forum).
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#4 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

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I've been on DIC for going on 6 years. This has been a subject of much bitching from day one.

"Oh noes! Teh noobz don't write their own codez!"

"Oh noes! Teh noobz want help with the homeworks!"

"Oh noes! Teh noobz cheated on an exam!"

Personally, I believe the cream rises to the top. Those who can code will code. Those who can't code will eventually fail.
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#5 CharlieMay  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:52 PM

OP, I understand what you're trying to convey but in the end one of two thing will happen. Those people will never make it in the real programming world, or they will evolve and learn from what they have done (repeatedly or through epiphany-type moments) and become better over-all. In both cases, to become better takes some drive on the part of the programmer. You're not going to walk into a programming job without some questions you have to answer without Google at your fingertips.

Before Google there were still forums specific to languages where people helped people. And even then there were those that wanted to show their knowledge by solving the problem and there were those that gave a little bump to get you moving in the right direction.

Either way it works out for them is a choice they made, in where they want to be as an end result.
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#6 aczwicker  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:59 PM

View PostBenignDesign, on 07 May 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

I've been on DIC for going on 6 years. This has been a subject of much bitching from day one.

"Oh noes! Teh noobz don't write their own codez!"

"Oh noes! Teh noobz want help with the homeworks!"

"Oh noes! Teh noobz cheated on an exam!"

Personally, I believe the cream rises to the top. Those who can code will code. Those who can't code will eventually fail.


That's a good point. My intent wasn't to knock on people that reuse code. It was mainly in reference to a post I saw about answering someone's exam questions directly. I just don't think its ethical for someone to ask a community of programmers for answers to something that was intended to be answered by the student/examee, not by another being that actually holds the knowledge and know-how by experience.

View Postcreativecoding, on 07 May 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

Who cares if they make their living off other people's code? If it works, it works. If it interferes with your work, that's your problem (aka, complain to your boss, not some forum).


Im not necessarily referring to living off another persons code. I am referring more or less to certifications and exams that are "supposed" to be a certificate that said person knows their stuff.
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#7 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:01 PM

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View Postaczwicker, on 07 May 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

I just don't think its ethical for someone to ask a community of programmers for answers to something that was intended to be answered by the student/examee


I agree. If you see someone directly asking for exam answers, report the post. I have no problem closing it. We're here to help build better programmers for the future. These are people with whom we will one day have to work, collaborate, and function for 40+ hours/week. I have no problem crushing their dreams for the sake of my future sanity.

Spoiler

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#8 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:54 PM

Then there's this thread.
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#9 baavgai  Icon User is online

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:38 AM

View PostBenignDesign, on 07 May 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

Those who can code will code. Those who can't code will eventually fail.


Sadly, no. They tend to become managers.

I'm serious. It makes a strange kind if sense, when you think about it.

Coders code. Faux coders spend a lot of time figuring out how to hide the fact they don't know what they're doing. This often leads to more social interaction in the workplace. Convincing others you can do your job. You don't have to convince other programmers of your competence, so much as your superiors. And when those on high look for suit material, guess who comes right to mind?

This is not a problem unique to programming. Business culture will tend to promote the gregarious over the competent. Indeed, the competent will often be seen as too valuable their current position.
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#10 depricated  Icon User is online

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:42 AM

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View PostBenignDesign, on 07 May 2013 - 05:51 PM, said:

I've been on DIC for going on 6 years. This has been a subject of much bitching from day one.Personally, I believe the cream rises to the top. Those who can code will code. Those who can't code will eventually fail.


This. Right here. And as someone who asked for help as a student:

I joined DIC some 4-5 years ago, about the time I started going to school. I didn't join because I was a student looking for help with homework though (don't get me wrong, I did ask for help on a couple projects back then) but because I was fed up with not being able to talk or study with my classmates.

I haven't really kept track of most of my classmates, but the ones I know were fuckoffs are still working in kitchens, while I'm transitioning an application from VBA/Access to VB.NET/SQL. They might have done well on assignments where they could steal other peoples work, but since they didn't even put in the time to think about what they were making, they failed the tests. I came here not just to learn code but language. I ask about best practice. I've posted code of my own and asked it to be dissected and attacked so that I could learn how others would do it better and try to emulate that. But I always wanted to know why. Hell, the majority of the time I just wanted a push in the right direction.

I feel lucky in that I was driven by myself to do well, and was able to find a job to get me started on this path where my boss understands that I'm still learning and doesn't deride me for it. I've learned more in the past 9 months programming on the job than I did in school, but I'd be nowhere if I had just buried my head in my books and not asked for help in understanding what I was reading.

Point being: some of us are trying our damnedest - not everyone coming here and asking for help is trying for a free ride. I've never wanted more than suggestions and elucidation.
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#11 Cheribasa  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:05 AM

I have quite honestly enjoyed my time coding, and being here for less than a year, I've learned a lot, I've never cheated on anything that iv'e done. My grade in my class will more than vouch for that.
I have to agree with Modi. Those that code code, and those that cheat, cheat.
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#12 torind_2000  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:08 AM

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Laziness isn't really evolving, it's always been like this. It's just easier now because of the Internet.
The Internet would be pointless if you did not use it to find information relevant to your needs.

DIC is the only forum I'm a member of, but I can say from all of the lurking I do I see the moderators here usually take care of the gimme teh codez threads quickly. The moderators here are fantastic at filtering out the people that want their homework or work projects handed to them. They don't really tolerate that.

On the other side of that coin if you make an effort, the plethora of guru's here will bend over backwards it seems to help you learn. They won't give you code, they sometimes post small examples that you can study then modify and use but usually only just enough code to force you to use your brain and think. They seem to truly want to help you understand why your thing does or doesn't do what it supposed to.

Sure there seem to be a lot of people that want stuff handed to them, but there are more I think that really want to learn what they are doing.
Don't let the bad ones bring you down, see the good ones and help them.

:whistling:

This post has been edited by torind_2000: 08 May 2013 - 10:05 AM

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#13 andrewsw  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

View Posttorind_2000, on 08 May 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

Don't let the bad ones bring you down, see the good ones and help them.

I agree :). If I can see that someone is making an effort then I'm happy to invest some time, and effort, to assist them in their journey - to lead them (or point them) in the right direction. If someone is not making any effort then my enthusiasm quickly fades.

This post has been edited by andrewsw: 08 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

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#14 aczwicker  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:07 AM

View Postmodi123_1, on 07 May 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

Then there's this thread.


Wow, I completely missed that one. That's Hilarious!
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#15 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: Human Laziness Evolving?

Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:09 AM

this is a bad thread.
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