Where is programming part while working with UDK

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#1 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:26 PM

I am learning to work on UDK and now I know a lot of stuff. I am wondering, How and when will actual coding part will come into the scene.
Am I even on the right track?
Cause I created a map on UDK, And that's all I did. Everything else was handled by UDK i.e Player's movements, Enemy AI, Weapon's mechanism, Vehicles' mechanism.
So I am getting a feeling that I am not doing the right thing to become a game programmer.
PS- Sorry if I sound paranoid, Cause actually I am, right now.


About me-
As you can imagine by topic's heading, I am new to Game Programming.
I already know C (Studied from Dennis Ritchie),C++, Java(core) and have a lot of experience with these three. I am a graduate CS Engineer so I know basics of computer graphics.
Currently Learning python side by side.

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#2 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 07 August 2013 - 09:59 PM

BUMP
Anyone?
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#3 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:22 PM

You may not get much of an answer to this until tomorrow. It can take 24 hours to get an answer pretty easily.

In my opinion, yes, you're on the wrong track. You've probably learned a lot about what a game engine looks like on the outside, but my experience with the Torque 3D engine taught me that you really don't know anything until you basically know how to write the engine yourself.

I believe you need to go lower level and learn the fundamentals. I mean, can you program a height map terrain with collision detection, a skybox, and write your own camera code? That's still pretty elementary. Most engine obfuscate all that from you, and ultimately that means you end up not really knowing how the engine works, and therefor unable to modify it.

I'm going to tell you to go explore DirectX 11 and XNA simultaneously, assuming you're in a Windows environment. I know others will disagree with me, but will still probably tell you to go explore some frameworks, libraries, and languages.

XNA uses C#. DX11, of course, uses C++. All of that is free downloads from Microsoft, so it doesn't hurt to give them a try. Its free anyway. Personally, I think you'll learn more from XNA. I think there is a broader range of tutorials and books on it. In some ways, it may seem too simple if you have a CS degree. But I think it will have much to teach you. And if XNA is too elementary, then you can always do DX11 or OpenGL.
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#4 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 07 August 2013 - 10:36 PM

Ok I am putting UDK learning to a rest for a while now. Heading to XNA. Let me see how that goes. I have seen Xna's interface before. Tried it few years ago but gave up.
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#5 aaron1178  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:18 AM

I agree with BBeck, you're on the wrong track. The UDK gives you examples and some assets to help you with your game, but in reality, they are not worth anything, since you haven't created them yourself. Sure, it's real easy to use their resources to create a game, but in turn, it will not give you anything, since they follow a different design.

There are a lot of good tutorials out there for the UDK, just google 'UDK Programming tutorials', and that will come up with a heap of links that you can use at your disposal. I've used the UDK before and it is a pretty good piece of software. Then I started writing my own game in C++ and DirectX 9.0, and I must say, I have learnt a hell of a lot more about programming and how game systems work, compared to using the UDK to just write some scripts to move a vehicle or something.

Taking the time to learn a new Graphics api or framework is worth the time in the long run. It will give you a lot of practical experience and will teach you some quite amazing topics. I have to point out though, with programming a game yourself, will frustrate you, push you above and beyond your limits, and will also take a lot more time than using a pre-built game engine.

Yes, XNA is no longer supported... sorry bout this , but XNA is a great framework for beginners to understand the principals of a game and their systems. Another plus is there are numerous tutorials for XNA. I myself use DirectX for my 3D game, but that is just my preference. Who knows...... maybe one day, DirectX will no longer be supported :'( But until that day arrives, I march on.

View PostBBeck, on 08 August 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I know others will disagree with me,


How would you know such a thing? ;)
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#6 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:36 AM

View Postaaron1178, on 08 August 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

I agree with BBeck, you're on the wrong track. The UDK gives you examples and some assets to help you with your game, but in reality, they are not worth anything, since you haven't created them yourself. Sure, it's real easy to use their resources to create a game, but in turn, it will not give you anything, since they follow a different design.

There are a lot of good tutorials out there for the UDK, just google 'UDK Programming tutorials', and that will come up with a heap of links that you can use at your disposal. I've used the UDK before and it is a pretty good piece of software. Then I started writing my own game in C++ and DirectX 9.0, and I must say, I have learnt a hell of a lot more about programming and how game systems work, compared to using the UDK to just write some scripts to move a vehicle or something.

Taking the time to learn a new Graphics api or framework is worth the time in the long run. It will give you a lot of practical experience and will teach you some quite amazing topics. I have to point out though, with programming a game yourself, will frustrate you, push you above and beyond your limits, and will also take a lot more time than using a pre-built game engine.

Yes, XNA is no longer supported... sorry bout this , but XNA is a great framework for beginners to understand the principals of a game and their systems. Another plus is there are numerous tutorials for XNA. I myself use DirectX for my 3D game, but that is just my preference. Who knows...... maybe one day, DirectX will no longer be supported :'( But until that day arrives, I march on.

View PostBBeck, on 08 August 2013 - 04:22 PM, said:

I know others will disagree with me,


How would you know such a thing? ;)/>

Thanks a lot for your helpful response. So Should I start learning xna for now, to grasp the basics?
And as you said , I should learn about Graphics api or framework. Can you tell me about any good sourse to do so? Any book, online tutorials, ebook, anything? and kindly link me up with good xna tutorials too , if it's not too much.
PS- I started learning UDK as someone advised me to do so but in the process, I felt that there has to be something more than this, Making a game with UDK is a piece of cake. I want to learn "How to make a game myself".

This is a really great forum, I am feeling great reading such nice and informative responses from people.
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#7 aaron1178  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 03:48 AM

If you're going to use XNA, you don't need to learn DirectX. DirectX is a Graphics library, which links with your graphics card.

Quote

The XNA Framework is based on the native implementation of .NET Compact Framework 2.0 for Xbox 360 development and .NET Framework 2.0 on Windows. It includes an extensive set of class libraries, specific to game development, to promote maximum code reuse across target platforms. The framework runs on a version of the Common Language Runtime that is optimized for gaming to provide a managed execution environment.


You should learn which ever one you wish, since it's your project and is also determined by your ability to learn. DirectX and C++ is probably the hardest for new comers, where XNA provides a big ball of bubble wrap to easy you into the fundamentals.

If you go with XNA, I would suggest: http://www.riemers.net/

And if you decide to go with C++ and DirectX: http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/ - C++ tutorials
http://www.directxtutorial.com/ - DirectX tutorials

Look around this forum and over google on the pros and cons of XNA and DirectX, not to mention all the other graphics libraries and frameworks available.

I hope this will get you going.
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#8 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 04:01 AM

View Postaaron1178, on 08 August 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

If you're going to use XNA, you don't need to learn DirectX. DirectX is a Graphics library, which links with your graphics card.

Quote

The XNA Framework is based on the native implementation of .NET Compact Framework 2.0 for Xbox 360 development and .NET Framework 2.0 on Windows. It includes an extensive set of class libraries, specific to game development, to promote maximum code reuse across target platforms. The framework runs on a version of the Common Language Runtime that is optimized for gaming to provide a managed execution environment.


You should learn which ever one you wish, since it's your project and is also determined by your ability to learn. DirectX and C++ is probably the hardest for new comers, where XNA provides a big ball of bubble wrap to easy you into the fundamentals.

If you go with XNA, I would suggest: http://www.riemers.net/

And if you decide to go with C++ and DirectX: http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/ - C++ tutorials
http://www.directxtutorial.com/ - DirectX tutorials

Look around this forum and over google on the pros and cons of XNA and DirectX, not to mention all the other graphics libraries and frameworks available.

I hope this will get you going.

Ok, then I would go for c++ and directX as, My C++ is already strong. Thank you.
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#9 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:14 AM

I agree with arron.

I still recommend exploring both paths (XNA and DX11) simultaneously. With your background it sounds like you're ready to get started in DX11, but I think you'll learn more about game programming in XNA. So, I think you should at least find out what's out there information wise in books in XNA.

The big advantage to getting into DX11 is that that's probably closer to what you'll be using in the world of professional game programming, especially in terms of working in C++. Ultimately, that's probably where you need to end up.

But here's what I believe you will encounter with DX (or OpenGl for that matter). First of all, you have to be able to run DX in an operating system. DX pretty much only runs in Windows. So, you are going to have to write at least a few pages of code in WIN32 to just put a window on the screen that you can write DX stuff into. WIN32 is a bit esoteric. The only really good book on it that I've seen has been out of publication for probably about 20 years. Learning it is tough, although there may have been some new books that have come out in the past few years that I'm unaware of. Fortunately, I really only think you need to copy and paste about 2 or 3 pages of WIN32 code to get your DX stuff working. If you're comfortable trusting that code and not knowing how it works or what it does, you can probably move forward with DX. Personally, it would probably drive me crazy not knowing how it works. But in my case, I spent a few years learning WIN32 and so the hand full of pages of WIN32 code required all make sense to me since at one point I went considerably deeper into WIN32 than that. All the WIN32 code has to do is setup a window and it's process in the OS and handle some basic event driven messaging.

So, then you have a window. Next you'll need to use DirectX. So, you'll need about 10 pages of initialization code to startup DX and get it attached to your window. DX is built on COM, but COM was so difficult that Microsoft had to put DX in a wrapper so obfuscate most of COM away. But you have to realize that a few things are handled differently for DX because it is built on COM. The big one is that it deallocates its own memory based on counting the number of objects it has running. That's very different than how things are normally done in Windows or C++.

And finally you are ready to write some code that actually does something. So far, all you have is a blank DX window. And even understanding what you have here so far is substantial achievement.

Contrast this with XNA. In XNA, you startup with a new template and you're at the same place. A couple of easy to understand pages of code are generated for you. Actually, taking the time to understand this code in XNA will help you better understand a great way to organize your DX code which otherwise might not have occurred to you as a beginner.

And I think this kind of illustrates the difference between the two. In XNA, you get straight down to the business of writing game code. DirectX isn't for writing game code and neither is OpenGL. Sure, they're used to write a lot of professional game code, but DX is basically a library to write your own graphics driver with. In fact, OpenGL is so much so that it doesn't do anything other than graphics; it doesn't do sound or input, etc. DX has included more and more over the years for game programming, but its all Microsoft specific, and DX is still primarily a library for writing a graphics driver. You'll be working directly with the graphics hardware, and as such, writing code to directly control the hardware. In XNA, you don't get into any of that, and that's the difference between the two. XNA is about getting straight to the business of writing game code.

Professionally, you probably need to learn DX and especially C++. DX is nothing but dereferenced pointers. So, if pointers gave you any trouble in school, you're going to have to master them to work with DX. You've got pointers 2, 3, 4 layers deep. I recommend a book or two just on pointers alone.

DX and especially C++ is what you need on your resume, and I think others will agree with that at least. But I think XNA is where you are going to learn about game programming.

I suggest getting into both simultaneously. A few months working with both and I think you'll get an idea of where you can gain value from both.

In my mind, just because you're solid in pointers, object oriented programming, COM, and WIN32, doesn't make you a game programmer. Do you know how to implement view frustrum culling with a ROAM terrain algorithm? Are you solid working with matrices and vectors? Can you do rigid and skinned animation in code? Can you throw together a quick crude model in Blender, Max, or Maya and write the code to import it and animate it? Do you understand UV mapping? Can you write basic shaders in HLSL or GLSL? Can you do sound using XACT (which is used in both DX and XNA)? How solid is your object oriented thinking (I think C#/XNA is much better and getting you to think object oriented than a couple years of college in C++)? Do you know how to implement Oriented Bounding Box collision? Can you do SLERP with quaternions to interpolate rotations? Do you understand deferred rendering?


And that's just the tip of the iceberg. To me that is game programming, not understanding pointers or WIN32. DX spends a tremendous amount of time on stuff that has basically nothing to do with game programming. XNA gets straight to work.

Moreover, I think you will eventually find that most of what I've talked about as far as what you need to know game programming wise is barely covered in the DX world if at all. There are only like 3 DX11 books in existence. There are more like 20 for XNA. And it would take someone with your background to get into those DX books and make use of them. But I think only Frank Luna's book really even begins to get into game programming. There's one that's called something like Game Programming in DX11, that basically only shows you how to draw a couple things on the screen. It really doesn't even scratch the surface of game programming.

With XNA those 20 books are written mostly for beginners. A lot of times they don't do the best job explaining things. But between them, they cover a whole lot of ground about actual game programming topics, not just how to initialize DX to draw triangles on the screen.

I'm not sure any game programming environment is perfect in terms of providing an easy path to teach you everything you want to know. I think it's going to be a struggle regardless of which path you take. But I think XNA is the easiest and most rewarding path you will find even compared to more professional offerings such as DX and OpenGL.

If you do get into XNA, realize that XNA 3.0 works with VS 2008 and XNA 4.0 works with VS 2010. You can download free versions of either (XNA is a separate download on top of the IDE). The two are not totally cross compatiable. There were significant changes to basic drawing that tend to make examples in one useless in the other unless you know how to convert one to the other. And that's the problem with Riemer's stuff. I don't think he ever finished converting his tutorials. I also think he jumps into HLSL too early, although for you that may be okay if you have a background in computer graphics.

In addition to Riemers, check out some of the links in the XNA forum. And especially check out RB Whitiker's stuff. He's the first I would recommend checking out for XNA tutorials, even above my own stuff at VirtuallyProgramming.com (Incidentally, I'm trying to get a few new tutorials added to my site this next week covering matrices, skyboxes, and rigid animation). He also has some C# tutorials, but if you know C++ you probably already know 70% of C#. It should take you maybe a day to pick up C#.

Another advantage that XNA has is rapidly prototyping an idea. Even if you start putting together your own libraries in DX11, I think you'll find it faster to prototype and test ideas in XNA.

For you, I would recommend both XNA and DX11. But if you get a month or two of experience in both, you will likely start seeing what you think is right for you.

This post has been edited by BBeck: 08 August 2013 - 07:44 AM

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#10 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 07:49 AM

View PostBBeck, on 08 August 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:

In my mind, just because you're solid in pointers, object oriented programming, COM, and WIN32, doesn't make you a game programmer. Do you know how to implement view frustrum culling with a ROAM terrain algorithm? Are you solid working with matrices and vectors? Can you do rigid and skinned animation in code? Can you throw together a quick crude model in Blender, Max, or Maya and write the code to import it and animate it? Do you understand UV mapping? Can you write basic shaders in HLSL or GLSL? Can you do sound using XACT (which is used in both DX and XNA)? How solid is your object oriented thinking (I think C#/XNA is much better and getting you to think object oriented than a couple years of college in C++)? Do you know how to implement Oriented Bounding Box collision? Can you do SLERP with quaternions to interpolate rotations? Do you understand deferred rendering?



I understood what you are saying, And I admit that , as of now, I don't have answer to any of the above questions. I think, I agree with your point. I acknowledge the fact that a degree in CS doesn't even touch the "Game Programming" so evidently, I have a long and hard way to go. As I am an amateur in this I am going to listen to your advice and will try to learn both XNA and DX, at my own level and pace. The only thing I want to ask is, the XNA tutorials you speak of, Are they going to touch these concepts? The ones you mentioned and advanced?
Cause ofcourse Game development is not a child's play, So one has to put his soul into it, if he truly wants to get into it. I am downloading XNA 4.0 and going through the tutorials you told me to follow.

I wager, I am going to post a lot of stuff here,starting today. Thank You for your help.
PS- If you don't mind, I would like to maintain a contact with you(Someone who knows about stuff clearly)as I am going to need a lot of guidance. Email, FB, anything will do.

View PostBBeck, on 08 August 2013 - 07:14 AM, said:


Oh, I forgot, We can add people here too. My bad.
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#11 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 08:10 AM

RB's tutorials cover a lot of ground. I'm really amazed at his stuff. Riemer's stuff is worth going through (his website I mean) as it at least introduces some topics. Some of the other tutorial sites have some good stuff. Personally, I would start with RB's site and his XNA tutorials, and maybe buy Riemer's book although it's XNA 3.0 and only works with VS2008. You almost need to download both XNA 3 and XNA 4 and both versions of VS to make use of all the tutorials out there.

http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0

http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0

Those two books have probably been my "go to" books for XNA even though they are 3.0. It's a real shame that he didn't make a 4.0 version of those books.

Sean James's book covers a whole bunch of really good stuff, but unfortunately its poorly written in my opinion. I've used it a lot, but you have to combine it with information elsewhere to really use it. It covers HLSL and some other really good stuff, even if it doesn't explain things well. Really, I think downloading the sourcecode for that book and just reading through the code is better than the book itself for learning 9 times out of 10. So, I recommend it with hesitation.

http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0


I think most (if not all) of the stuff I mentioned is covered in the various XNA books.

A basic book like this one might be a good place to just get started:
http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0

I'm trying to get some new tutorials on my site, as I've already written code for several new tutorials, and up until now only had one tutorial posted. I'm hoping to get those posted in the next week or so. They cover a more in depth look at matrices, doing a skybox and the basics of a space shooter type game as far as putting a ship into the scene and creating the environment, and rigid animation. If you go there and come back, you may have to refresh pages to see the changes.

I would like to cover all the topics I mentioned and more on the website, but I'm not sure if anyone is really using it and it takes a tremendous amount of time to put together a single tutorial. The more people I know who are using it, the more interested I get in working on it. But it's a vicious circle because there has to be good content before people want to use it.

Eventually, I hope to duplicate all of the tutorials in DX11 and hopefully OpenGl one day as well, but that's probably quite a long ways away.

Riemer's books are better than his website. A few of the XNA books really focus more on 2D than 3D.

Of course, we have the XNA forum here where we're always glad to answer questions and help people through their XNA problems.

Oh. I forgot to mention that the matrix tutorial I'm doing now shows how to make a simple model in Blender and import it into XNA.

This post has been edited by BBeck: 08 August 2013 - 08:25 AM

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:23 AM

View Postdevilgamer0, on 08 August 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

BUMP
Anyone?

Don't bump.
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#13 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 09:49 AM

View PostButchDean, on 08 August 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

View Postdevilgamer0, on 08 August 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

BUMP
Anyone?

Don't bump.


So that's what you picked from all the stuff above? :plain:

View PostBBeck, on 08 August 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

RB's tutorials cover a lot of ground. I'm really amazed at his stuff. Riemer's stuff is worth going through (his website I mean) as it at least introduces some topics. Some of the other tutorial sites have some good stuff. Personally, I would start with RB's site and his XNA tutorials, and maybe buy Riemer's book although it's XNA 3.0 and only works with VS2008. You almost need to download both XNA 3 and XNA 4 and both versions of VS to make use of all the tutorials out there.

http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0

http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0

Those two books have probably been my "go to" books for XNA even though they are 3.0. It's a real shame that he didn't make a 4.0 version of those books.

Sean James's book covers a whole bunch of really good stuff, but unfortunately its poorly written in my opinion. I've used it a lot, but you have to combine it with information elsewhere to really use it. It covers HLSL and some other really good stuff, even if it doesn't explain things well. Really, I think downloading the sourcecode for that book and just reading through the code is better than the book itself for learning 9 times out of 10. So, I recommend it with hesitation.

http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0


I think most (if not all) of the stuff I mentioned is covered in the various XNA books.

A basic book like this one might be a good place to just get started:
http://www.amazon.co...eywords=XNA+4.0

I'm trying to get some new tutorials on my site, as I've already written code for several new tutorials, and up until now only had one tutorial posted. I'm hoping to get those posted in the next week or so. They cover a more in depth look at matrices, doing a skybox and the basics of a space shooter type game as far as putting a ship into the scene and creating the environment, and rigid animation. If you go there and come back, you may have to refresh pages to see the changes.

I would like to cover all the topics I mentioned and more on the website, but I'm not sure if anyone is really using it and it takes a tremendous amount of time to put together a single tutorial. The more people I know who are using it, the more interested I get in working on it. But it's a vicious circle because there has to be good content before people want to use it.

Eventually, I hope to duplicate all of the tutorials in DX11 and hopefully OpenGl one day as well, but that's probably quite a long ways away.

Riemer's books are better than his website. A few of the XNA books really focus more on 2D than 3D.

Of course, we have the XNA forum here where we're always glad to answer questions and help people through their XNA problems.

Oh. I forgot to mention that the matrix tutorial I'm doing now shows how to make a simple model in Blender and import it into XNA.


Thanks alot. Appreciated. :)
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#14 devilgamer0  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 11:24 AM

View PostButchDean, on 08 August 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

View Postdevilgamer0, on 08 August 2013 - 01:59 AM, said:

BUMP
Anyone?

Don't bump.

I just came to know that bumping is not taken nicely in forums, My bad.
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#15 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: Where is programming part while working with UDK

Posted 08 August 2013 - 12:09 PM

Oh. I should also point out that you really need to install XNA 3.0 (or 3.1 or whatever 3 version it is) and XNA 4.0 both to get full use out of all the info that's out there. I really got started with 3.0 and by the time I went to 4.0 I already had most of the basics down.

As I looked through my XNA books for a good one to recommend getting started, I started realizing most of the best XNA books are actually written only for 3.0.

There were significant changes to the way drawing is done from 3.0 to 4.0. Eventually, you will learn to convert one to the other, but starting out it's easier to just stick with the version that the book or tutorial was designed for until you understand the differences.
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