Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

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34 Replies - 2586 Views - Last Post: 30 September 2013 - 12:11 AM

#16 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:28 PM

Did you take your classes alone, modi?
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#17 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:36 PM

From the near constant bagging on, insulting, and deriding of any teacher referenced it seems I must have been.
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#18 e_i_pi  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 01:50 PM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 18 September 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

Doesn't matter what you use to generate your object code, knowing how to tell the machine what to do is always going to require real thought.

I'll quote this next time there's a hate rant on PHP ;)

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Secondly, you seem to assume that there's some future where it'll be possible to make a gesture-based language. That is not the future, we have all of the technology we'd need to do that today. The thing is, it wouldn't actually serve any purpose, so nobody bothers.

In terms of this topic, I see these gesture based languages as being comparable to calculators. Will calculators replace mathematicians? No. Will they make common tasks easier? Yes. Will they make professionals lazier? Possibly, but the professionals will still have to learn how to do every operation when they receive tuition, no matter how trivial the operation is.

This reminds me of a problem I was presented with in first year maths - differentiate y = xx. There may be calculators that can do that nowadays, but at the time there wasn't, it required lateral thinking to solve the problem.
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#19 adn258  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

You're not wrong about Computer Science teachers. The guy teaching the class I'm currently taking is a "nice guy" but he isn't specific about what he wants. When you're teaching you should never leave anything to question. This teacher isn't explicit at all.

He seems like a nice guy to have a beer with but he's not a good teacher I hate to say. Thankfully I know most of the class material so I don't even read the book. He knows this, and so he goes out of his way to find little tiny things that I've done wrong to mark down points (like he'll dock you 5% just for not quite naming the zip file correctly as he specified).

I'm sure he's also teaching that the little stuff like that is important but still he's overkill as far as I'm concerned. I feel VERY SORRY for the kids in the class that don't have hardly any programming experience.

This post has been edited by adn258: 18 September 2013 - 02:15 PM

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#20 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:31 PM

Ah.. the "I am soo-o-o beyond this class but the big ol' stupid-dumb meanie teacher is out to get me and is keeping me down by nickle and diming my grades for things I am doing wrong and totes doesn't teach explicitly enough for my liking" scenario. Damn smart kid problems, I tell you what.

Spoiler

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#21 adn258  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:41 PM

I'm not saying that I'm too smart for the class nor am I saying the teacher is dumb he's just bad at teaching. This also doesn't mean he's hard or easy either it just means he's bad at teaching.

I'd be willing to bet at least 1/3rd of this class will get less than a C. I'm not trying to be whiny but people are paying thousands of dollars to go to school in both money and hours of time lost when they could be doing something else.

The school and the staff should try their best to educate kids by teaching things as well as they can. People have to work to get good grades we all know that, but having a good staff is essential. We're paying them they aren't paying us.

This post has been edited by adn258: 18 September 2013 - 02:50 PM

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#22 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:53 PM

I'm not saying this as a personal thing, but I've found that as a rule, good students don't complain about their teachers and good teachers don't complain about their students. You can learn from anyone, and you can teach something to anyone, and the people who tend to learn the most and who teach the most are the ones who adapt to the situation before them and make the best of it.

Taking your case in particular now, if you say that the professor is docking you for details, you might reflect a little and notice that if you were better at details this would not be an issue. That is, if your attitude were "this is an opportunity to improve on this aspect of my work" you'd learn something very useful and also come out with a better grade in the end.

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We're paying them they aren't paying us.


You're paying them to teach you, not to tell them how to teach.

Quote

I'll quote this next time there's a hate rant on PHP


Well, it's true that some tools are better at obstructing your work than others, and good language design is mostly about reducing that friction. PHP makes a great case study in how not to do it. :)

(Sort of like WEP for encryption protocols)
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#23 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 02:57 PM

WEP wasn't intended for hardcore encryption.. just to provide an equivalent protection scheme as a wired network.
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#24 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:19 PM

Sure, sure. But if you examine WEP, you'll find that it makes so many design mistakes that data sent over it is essentially transparent, which is why it's totally deprecated and only used today as a case study in how not to design an encryption protocol.

I'm not suggesting that PHP is ONLY useful as a case study in how not to design a language... just that this is one of the many uses for it.
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#25 adn258  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:30 PM

Jon you make good points and I'm not disagreeing with you. That said I'll admit I'm perhaps a bit bias against colleges in general.

This is a completely separate topic I know and this has nothing to do with my professor, but I do plan on making a website and hopefully a nonprofit someday to fight college monopolies. Education costs way too much these days, and there are way too many people getting paid way too high unjust salaries.

For example even at our tiny college here in Montana our President gets paid 285 thousand+ a year which is ridiculous. Also after he gets done working here 5 years or more he is granted 50 thousand a year for 10 years GUARANTEED retirement for him he doesn't even have to be here anymore...what a sweet deal.

The entire higher educational system in this country is corrupt to the core. I could come up with an entire array of corruption examples at my college alone in terms of the upper administration.

To name just a few things lets start with parking for example. They sell parking permits for outrageous prices to students and they can only find a spot 1/10th of the time since there's like 5 times as many permits now issued as there are spaces. What incentive do they have to make more spaces? None.

The fewer the spaces and the higher the demand the more you can charge. That's how capitalism works.

Recently they cut off a bunch of veteran students too by cutting funding for their education(this got in the papers and they got very bad publicity including our president).

They also got bad publicity when they ran into financial problems after wasting all of our money. Guess what happened when they got done wasting all of our money? They reduced the President's salary right? Haha! No! They laid off a bunch of the LOWLY PAID PROFESSORS that we like to talk about.

Then we have outrageous textbook prices and monopolistic publishing companies charging insane prices for textbooks.

We could go on all night but essentially many of these colleges are monopolistic enterprises that are exploiting students and lower faculty for everything they can get out of them.

They do this under the guise that they are "nonprofit" and that they are helping everyone get a higher education when the truth of the mater is kids education comes secondary and profit comes first.

They also have VERY LITTLE legislative oversight in how they spend their money. People are starting to get very angry at the entire "college system" in this country and I think rightfully so.

This is why I think there might be opportunity for a nonprofit group that fights for students and lower faculty across the country. The upper administration already has plenty of representation, but there is little to no representation for the little guy.


ALSO You're right about PHP I love PHP personally. I think PHP is as good as the programmers using it right?

This post has been edited by adn258: 18 September 2013 - 03:34 PM

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#26 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 03:35 PM

Again - WEP does what it needs to - provide enough security to mimic my fist full of stiff 10BASE5 cabling... Anything more is asking too much of WEP.

Spoiler

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#27 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 04:32 PM

adn258, you bring up some issues that are worth solving. Perhaps you should do a little study of economics in there somewhere. It would help you make your points a little more convincing and a little less strident. It might also help you come up with useful solutions.

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 18 September 2013 - 04:33 PM

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#28 adn258  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 18 September 2013 - 05:01 PM

One of the first solutions to this problem I think is reduce the profit incentive of things like education way down. How can this be done? A start would be pay caps which could be done on a ratio of the lowest paid employee to the highest paid employee.

Before you judge let me explain. You could cap the ratio out at say for government institutions at 8 times the lowest paid person. So that means if the lowest paid janitor in the school gets paid employees 7 dollars an hour it will mean that the president (the highest paid employee) can't be paid more than 56 dollars an hour by law.

If you think about it this would solve a lot of this tremendous wage disparity. Think about it. When these upper staff want a pay raise they would first have to think about how they would help the lowest paid employees FIRST.

This also means that if they plan to raise the presidents pay to match higher costs of living or inflation then they would keep in ratio the lowest paid employees pay too.
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#29 Skydiver  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 22 September 2013 - 08:47 PM

Interesting... So with that economic model, then it would encourage the "scale out" model rather than the "scale up" model. (scale out vs. scale up)

Since there is a cap on "salaries", but not dividends or profits, then as a rich fat cat, I will drop my title as C.E.O so that I'm not an an employee anymore, and instead I will be a majority shareholder. Additionally, I will chop up my large monolithic corporation into smaller companies of which I am a majority shareholder of each. I'll just have to make sure that I keep each smaller company working as a separate "cell" so that I don't run afoul of any anti-trust laws.
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#30 adn258  Icon User is offline

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Re: Do You Think Programming Might Someday "Almost" Become Obsolet

Posted 29 September 2013 - 10:56 PM

Interesting points SkyDiver. Your point would have no validity in terms of Government institutions like the University since it isn't for profit and can't generally be cut up like you're talking about. In terms of businesses you would have to be much more CAREFUL you're correct.

I actually have a saying related to this. Corporations are like sinking ship with holes. If you don't patch up ALL of the holes then water will just start gushing in through the other holes faster. Essentially they should all be kept on a short leash and heavily regulated. If they're not corporations will just figure out ways AROUND the rules. They already do this all of the time now of course.

Business laws should try to consider all of the extraneous variables, and in this case you likely found one SkyDiver. Essentially it would be a hole that wasn't patched up yet so to speak. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't try to change things and regulate business.

One of the things that could be done of course is massive fines or even criminal evasion (sort of like tax evasion) could happen if it can be proven in court that a corporation was making smaller corporations for the sole purpose of getting a higher salary for top CEOs.

Essentially there are ways you could fix that problem too. Another way to fix it too is simply by saying that any break off of a company into other companies is acceptable so long as none of the top executives for one of the companies isn't also working for the other break off company.
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