Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

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205 Replies - 7044 Views - Last Post: 09 November 2013 - 09:04 AM

#31 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:26 AM

View PostSergio Tapia, on 29 September 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

I hear in Canada and England healthcare is completely free - the way it should be.

Yes, in Canada it is!

& a good friend of my wife. Her mother lost her foot because it took FOUR YEARS for a standard procedure. Because the 'well oiled' government ran health-care system takes so long. She made more than 10+ appointments, some of which were canceled in advance, one was canceled while she was in the waiting room. It was a huge mess. But with it being free, & government provided, she doesn't get to choose where & with whom the procedure was done. So now she has one less foot because of the wonderful, free, government provided health care!

We also had 2 friend from Canada move to the United States in 2005-ish. They hated the way that their free health care worked, & would rather move here. That's how wonderful it can be.

View PostSergio Tapia, on 29 September 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

I would have no issues having 30% of my paycheck taken every month and thrown into the collective for free nation-wide healthcare.

I'd rather get my paycheck & my choice.
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#32 Michael26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:46 AM

So if you choose, are they obligated to accept you, do they have choice in the matter, they can reject you for whatever reason the choose.
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#33 NecroWinter  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:56 AM

View PostMichael26, on 30 September 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:

View PostNecroWinter, on 30 September 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

the difference is that if you don't have a car, you don't pay insurance for one.

Doesn't that mean you take more care about your cars than people?


Well, yeah most Americans probably do care about their cars more than strangers. However, theres a matter of principle. The idea here is that people should be able to choose what to do with their property. If you have to have health care you have no choice. With a car you can choose to not have a car.

Just playing devils advocate here, I am very much not a property rights guy/capitalist by any means.
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#34 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:22 AM

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The American health "care" system is ridiculous. As with so many other things over in the US, it all comes down to money. If you have the money to pay for private health care/insurance, then brilliant, feel free to fall ill, get in accidents, or whatever. If you don't have the money to do this though, you're screwed. You might lose a limb, or worse, but tough luck. If you can't pay for the cure, you don't get it.

Obama is trying to change that, so every citizen is entitled to a decent standard of medical care, but you still have assholes who just shrug it off as being too 'socialist' for the US. Which is better - a little socialism, and guaranteed health care for all your people, or yet more capitalism, and a brilliant opportunity for the health industry to milk yet more money out of the American people?

Yes, I know there are arguments about standards of care and all that, especially from no2pencil about his wife's friend's mother and her problems with the Canadian health service, but at the same time, that one unfortunate incident spread over four years. How many lives did the Canadian health service save in that time that wouldn't have been possible due to lack of insurance, or funds to pay for health care in the US?

Even then, there are ways around this. Run private healthcare alongside the 'Obamacare' scheme. That works pretty well in the UK. People that want the choice and can afford it, have it. People that aren't bothered about going private, or are happy with the national service, have that too.

But no, your stupid Republicans still argue against it with, from what I can tell, no real case for what they are saying.
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#35 Michael26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 05:53 AM

Ah the dirty word "socialism"

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#36 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:05 AM

I believe in a better life for those that work hard. Not those that just are.

Minimum wage, government provided food & health care... the government should not be here to provide to the citizens. When the people are dependent upon government hand outs, it's pretty low-quality to put everyone on the same page in my opinion.

There really isn't reason for me to continue to work my ass off, & to sock money away, when the floor & the ceiling continue to come closer together, & everyone is the same. When I receive crap health-care despite the fact I can afford better, & when everything is dropped to the least quality to be passable, then we have reached socialism, in my opinion, & there is no reason for me to continue to contribute back when the outcome is the same.

Sports teams shouldn't keep score, everyone should ware beige t-shirts, & everyone can live a very mediocre, & low-productive, & very average life where we all die by age 50 of heart-failure or various cancers.

Just to note, I believe in "America the free", not "America the provided for". & it is my belief that we are confusing the two.
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#37 Michael26  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:15 AM

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Run private healthcare alongside the 'Obamacare' scheme. That works pretty well in the UK. People that want the choice and can afford it, have it. People that aren't bothered about going private, or are happy with the national service, have that too.

Why can't you have that is US?
Not everyone can afford private health insurance.
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#38 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:29 AM

View Postno2pencil, on 30 September 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

I believe in a better life for those that work hard.


That's a slogan of course. No harm in that, we're all doing it, but it's just a slogan, and it's one that's used by all sides in this argument. So we're all agreed that this is a good slogan.

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There really isn't reason for me to continue to work my ass off, & to sock money away, when the floor & the ceiling continue to come closer together, & everyone is the same.


So we want something that falls somewhere this side of soviet-style communism. Okay, we're all still on the same page here.
(I'm not sure you really grasp the nature of rising income disparities, and the increasing stratification of American society, and what that means for most Americans, so I think you haven't quite grasped the implications of your floor/ceiling argument, but if in fact you believe what you imply there then we agree on even more tham you think.)

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When I receive crap health-care despite the fact I can afford better


So you'd like to be able to pay extra to get more - fine, this is allowed under Robomneycare and also under the Canadian and Western European models under discussion. So far you're not disagreeing with anyone.

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Sports teams shouldn't keep score, everyone should ware beige t-shirts, & everyone can live a very mediocre, & low-productive, & very average life where we all die by age 50 of heart-failure or various cancers.


This, I'm not sure about. One of us has no idea what you're talking about here. Who is advocating this? How does this come about as a consequence of a rational health care system on the European model?

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 30 September 2013 - 06:31 AM

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#39 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:38 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 30 September 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

View Postno2pencil, on 30 September 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Sports teams shouldn't keep score, everyone should ware beige t-shirts, & everyone can live a very mediocre, & low-productive, & very average life where we all die by age 50 of heart-failure or various cancers.


This, I'm not sure about. One of us has no idea what you're talking about here.

Yes yes, I'm a unique little snow-flake. I'll just put my 'special helmet' back on & go to sleep.

Please wake me up when it's all over.
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#40 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:46 AM

View Postno2pencil, on 30 September 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

I believe in a better life for those that work hard. Not those that just are.

Minimum wage, government provided food & health care... the government should not be here to provide to the citizens. When the people are dependent upon government hand outs, it's pretty low-quality to put everyone on the same page in my opinion.


Who would have everyone on the same page? All you would be doing is stating that there was a minimum page everyone started from. What page someone ends up on entirely depends on the person.

View Postno2pencil, on 30 September 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

There really isn't reason for me to continue to work my ass off, & to sock money away, when the floor & the ceiling continue to come closer together, & everyone is the same. When I receive crap health-care despite the fact I can afford better, & when everything is dropped to the least quality to be passable, then we have reached socialism, in my opinion, & there is no reason for me to continue to contribute back when the outcome is the same.


As Jon pointed out, you can still pay extra for better service. Again, Obamacare isn't about making sure everyone gets the same treatment. It's about making sure there is a minimum level of acceptable care available to everyone.

View Postno2pencil, on 30 September 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Sports teams shouldn't keep score, everyone should ware beige t-shirts, & everyone can live a very mediocre, & low-productive, & very average life where we all die by age 50 of heart-failure or various cancers.

Just to note, I believe in "America the free", not "America the provided for". & it is my belief that we are confusing the two.


What is this about? This suggests you've completely misunderstood my comment. No-one is saying everyone should get the same level of care, so all this crap about beige t-shirts is, well, crap. If you have more money than the next guy, and you want to throw it all at private medical care, go for it. No-one is stopping you. But why do you think that your privilege of being able to select who does your healthcare must mean that the people who can't afford it aren't entitled to it?
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#41 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:50 AM

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Your sarcasm implies that you think we all should be unique snow-flakes.

Here's your problem with the "work hard" slogan. A lot of people work hard and die doing it, all while never being able to afford health insurance. Working hard doesn't necessarily mean wealth in this country. Working hard can merely mean surviving. That's the point of a social safety net like food stamps and minimum wage.

You do understand unemployed doesn't mean lazy, it means unemployed, and looking for work, that can't be found.

Your wife's, friend's, mother, lost her foot... I and a lot of my friends have lost our families to poverty and shit health care. I once didn't tell my mother I broke my arm for a week, until it grew up to the size of grapefruit, because I knew going to the doctor meant we weren't going to be able to eat. And she worked, she and my father worked very hard.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 30 September 2013 - 06:54 AM

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#42 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:55 AM

View PostBort, on 30 September 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

What is this about? This suggests you've completely misunderstood my comment.

That's nice. I wasn't talking to you.

In fact, these are my opinions, provided here for discussion. From my experiences with people & life I have come to this opinion. I don't need to defend it, I'm just simply providing it to the table of discussion.

View Postlordofduct, on 30 September 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

Your sarcasm implies that you think we all should be unique snow-flakes.

No, my sarcasm implied that I'm an imbasile that can't comprehend. I'm sorry that it didn't come across this way. It wasn't intended to be made as an outward opinion towards others.
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#43 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:56 AM

Who were you talking to in that case?

And yes they are your opinions, put out there for discussion. Bort is discussing them.
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#44 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:02 AM

View Postno2pencil, on 30 September 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

View PostBort, on 30 September 2013 - 09:46 AM, said:

What is this about? This suggests you've completely misunderstood my comment.

That's nice. I wasn't talking to you.

In fact, these are my opinions, provided here for discussion. From my experiences with people & life I have come to this opinion. I don't need to defend it, I'm just simply providing it to the table of discussion.


So, you had someone come along and argue against your opinions, and all you did was spout something sarcastic at them? I'll bet you were a real asset to your school debating team.

So, your opinion is that so long as you have the right to choose your own health care and you can pay for it, stuff everyone else? As LoD said, if someone is injured, they might not be able to feed their family because they had to pay for health care. Not necessarily 'bad' people either, just ones that don't make as much money as you do.

And no2, why the sarcasm anyways? Your post really does suggest you don't know the details of this Obamacare, but instead have just been listening to Republican rhetoric.

This post has been edited by Bort: 30 September 2013 - 07:03 AM

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#45 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Teh "Socialism" is upon us...

Posted 30 September 2013 - 07:05 AM

View PostBort, on 30 September 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

So, your opinion is that so long as you have the right to choose your own health care and you can pay for it, stuff everyone else?

My opinion is not as black & white as that, but I don't agree with the direction we are headed. This is the wrong way to do it.

View PostBort, on 30 September 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

So, you had someone come along and argue against your opinions, and all you did was spout something sarcastic at them?

Regardless of what someone says, they are still my opinions. There really isn't anything to argue, imo.

View PostBort, on 30 September 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

I'll bet you were a real asset to your school debating team.

Here's a shocker, I wasn't on any debate team, if we even had such a thing.
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